For the record, certain responses of mine were not made on the assumption that the claims are true, but from the angle "if that is true, then..." I should've made that more clear earlier.

As I've already stated, I hope Grant shares with us what he learns from his communications with the CHDGDA and WHDGDF.

I log off for a few days and all hell breaks loose. And with a reprimand from two system administrators no less? My goodness.

Well, clearly this is a topic that people are keenly interested in. Let’s break it down a bit. Feel free to correct me if I misinterpreted you. Watch out, this is a long one.

Well, I agree with some things Brian and Anthony said, but not all. A moderate attitude is always good. But let's start with addressing the reprimand.

The purpose of the site:

"FORUM" - an assembly, meeting place, etc., for the discussion of questions of public interest.

I agree that this website is not designed to be a primary source of information. I agree that is it designed to be a community. I agree that it should not function as a rumor mill. It should increase the exposure that we have to fellow practitioners and reduce the amount of misinformation out there. But to that end, I think it’s unreasonalbe to expect that people won’t come to the site for advice and information. Especially when we have so many knowledgable and skillful practitoners here. If one thinks that someone is asking the wrong question, or that they’re asking the wrong person, then you can tell them what you think. But it would be a mistake to imply that the questions should not have been asked in the first place, and wouldn't this be counter to the purpose of the forum? Right here is where HDGD practitioners communicate with each other from across the world. This is where we have our conversations. This is where questions are asked and answered. Some question styles are more effective than others, and we might benefit from following a specific format. But the atmosphere is meant to be alive and quasi-unmoderated isn’t it?

Furthermore, to say that ‘you’ve got too much time on your hands… you should be focussing more on your training instead,’ may lead the reader to the innapropriate conclusion that these topics are not worth being debated. The statement perhaps fails to recognize that… people work hard to obtain skill. People work hard to obtain rank. And of course people will be upset if they think that there’s a chance that the outcome of their work might be arbitrarily changed or nullified. It’s unrealistic to expect that someone would ignore that kind of potential threat and concentrate on daily practice regardless. In nature, that would not be an adaptable survival trait. And as an extension of this, I don’t think that it’s fair to say that this is necessarily a case of an overdevelloped ‘Western mindset of Entitlement’... It’s smart to ask these questions.

As brief aside: I should point out that I can’t possibly be the only person frustrated by how often our masters don’t answer our questions directly. I think that often people come online to the forums in order to fill that gap. (Some of you may debate the benefits or shortcomings of this enigmatic style of teaching that many martial arts masters employ but…. I for one think that it’s often just a lack of professional communication skills.) It would be more helpful to posters if we try to answer their questions candidly and directly, rather than multiply their frustrations by telling them they shouldn’t be asking that particular type of question. Just try to help them as best you can. "Sometimes people need to know what time it is, and not the hsitory of clocks."

180 degree switch.

!!!HOWEVER!!!, decorum and respect is paramount at all times. This was conspicuously absent at times in this thread. When we come across problems in a system we’re a part of, of course we have to debate. But we have to debate fairly, proportionally, and responsibly. Even if we’ve been wronged. I feel that some posters in this thread were unecessarily inflammatory. Please note that my own expressions of frustration were formed as questions or conditionals. I did not formally argue or condemn. My aim was to investigate the rumor and debate the issues. And while I started the thread, I feel that the topic was derailed, and everyone’s attention turned towards specific negative incidents/mistakes. Regardless of whether those events are true or not, the way that some information was presented by others was clearly biased.

Anyways...We should debate these issues so that we can know where we stand morally and professionally. We should debate so that we can draw a line in the sand and say, “I’m willing to go/let it go this far and no farther.” We should debate to get at the truth of the matter. And we draw comparisons with other organizations for inspiration, not as a source of judgement. Participating in and listening to lively debate is how we can make responsible choices for ourselves and others.


Specific fixes:

1 - Let’s remove cute phrases and sayings from our arguments when thtey surround touchy issues. They confuse meaning, and they negatively effect the tone of the dialogue.

2 - Let’s be very careful about the SCOPE of what we say, and be careful not to paint everyone in a group with the same brush and call them greedy. That’s not responsible either. Accurately portraying a wrong and debating an appropriate response is good. Intentionally accusing someone of a serious crime they didn’t commit is obviously wrong. But accidentally painting them as wrong is both lazy and negligent.

------

Anyways. Master Gihm, thank you for the information! I will consult official sources and tell you all what I find. Anthony, I do agree on some points. And I didn't get to address everything as there's so much information. Though I questioned some of the points you both made, I still think that after we discuss we get a more accurate representation of things.

Shall we have rebuttals now? Let’s also have more thoughts on the topic of franchises and copyrights.



General ideas and thoughts:

No-one wants to be exploited. Students, masters, or companies.
Yes, martial arts bodies have the right to protect their intellectual property and not have it misrepresented or exploited.
Yes, a franchise fee and affiliation could definitely be worth it, depending on the support it provides to the school. What could or should be involved?
Yes, there’s probably a way for budding instructors to teach small scale without breaking the bank.
Yes, dan ranks are and should be transferrable. (no gup ranks?)
Should instructors have discretion over grading, or should tne national body be involved in that? This could relate to different dan or gup levels depending on the situation
Yes, instructors have discretion over teaching style and preparing for grading.
Yes, national martial arts bodies should be responsible for setting up and enforcing grading guidelines and standards. What scale should this be at? What kinds of guidelines/standards are or should be enforced?

yeah... this thread is definitely a bummer - and so are others like it.

this forum used to be a place where people would drop two-cents worth of food for thought like, "I was practicing gumbup x yesterday and something struck me... [and then some idea on application or a revelation on how they could increase speed or tighten balance].

no intended offense to anyone; however, it's unfortunate that topics like these (general bs about whose great-uncle got a bad haircut, hearsay/gossip, or moaning about some little part of federation bureaucracy) are growing - or at least they seem to. I find it hard to get through reading posts anymore without getting the general feeling like someone is just whining.

not to be rude, but to make a rude statement

train more and talk less.

Some would like to see this thread locked, or removed. I don't think things have gone that far yet. Accusations and complaints were made, and replies were given. Posting behaviour bothered some administrators, and suggestions for improvement were made. All of that is healthy.

For the record, I did not reprimand Grant. I re-stated what the site is for and re-stated what I would have preferred him to have done prior to coming to us with his question concerning rumours. Grant has a history of asking for help and outside information before he gives himself a chance to figure things out on his own. Having a similar problem myself, I do not wish to encourage it in another.

That this site even exists should show everyone that I started out in a similar mindset.

Grant:
Ask yourself why I keep telling you to pay attention to your instructor, and have more patience with yourself. Ask yourself why I might think it's a good idea to do your own legwork and then come to us to confirm what you have learned instead of just expecting us to tell you what you want to know when you want to know it.

Please go back and re-read each post carefully. Look carefully at what Ann is telling you. Look at the empathy you got from Casey and from me. Actually pay attention to what Brian Gihm is telling you and what it means.

Above all, it really should be more than obvious by now that the vast majority of us -for whatever reasons - do not wish to have a debate about what sort of NGB we'd like to have or what things ought to be like. Things take time. We are all ostensibly working toward a future where our global cultures integrate well into the federation of which we are members. That requires change from all of us. Change requires time.

Even whining about whining is still whining.

I agree with Anthony. The thread, although full of varying opinions, doesn't seem to have crossed the lines of decorum (unless you are very thin skinned and probably shouldn't be on a web thread anyway). This site has always tried to provide a forum for civil discussion about most any aspect of HDGD. I think divergent viewpoints are what makes this a productive and lively site.

I also think that things that make us bristle are probably good indicators of our own blind spots and prejudices and, as such, are areas in which we can improve ourselves. I've had hearty disagreements with others on this site, many times, and had to look at what, exactly, was causing me to put on my stern face and take a didactic tone. It usually involved me deleting a post I previously posted to avoid embarasement. Last one was a few days ago.

hahahaha. i guess i left myself open for that. nice jab

lol

the canadian fed's presidential email doesn't work, and the chungwon website is down.

As a general observation, I find it rather frustrating that information can be hard at best to obtain on your own. The U.S. Federation website has not been up in months (if not longer) and apparently our friends in Canada are running into the same trouble.

If it was not for this forum, we would have no access to any meaningful updates or information regarding seminars or tournaments, etc. The disconnect between the gumdo practicioner and the local federation(s) is alarming.

That is a very important observation, and one which I will certainly be more sensitive to in the future.

Not to necro-post, but...

Grant, I gave you the phone number for Master Chung's dojang and suggested you speak with either him or Ms. Chung as well. Ms. Chung pretty much lives at the dojang, so you can usually reach someone there from 7AM to 8PM on weekdays. There's really no reason not to call, unless you consider $10 for a calling card and waking up at 9AM too hard.

I've sent Master Chung a business email, and he has responded. I also sent him some follow-up questions, to which he hasn't responded yet. After I get the complete information, then we can talk about it.

Status report:

Since the first email informing me of the cost, all other emails I've sent to the Canadian HDGD offices with questions about the details have not been responded to. I'm also having difficulty getting through on the phone. Now I'm trying sending my questions with an aquaintance to visit the offices in person.

Have been trying to get answers now for.... two or three months?

Again, I hope this underscores how difficult it is to get information, and emphasizes the value of the online community in terms of solving this. "Do your own legwork before coming online" is not a valid complaint any more.

Could you please explain the trouble you are having with reaching HQ by phone? Does that martial arts business in Moncton, New Brunswick, Canada, with standard operating hours and a receptionist, simply not answer, or is the person with whom you wish to speak unavailable each time you call?

In terms of further questions...
You were seeking to know if it is required to pay a Federation membership fee in order to be permitted to teach as an official representative of the organization. You were told the cost to be an official instructor, were you not? I take it that you accept that as an answer to that question.

What were your subsequent questions? In this thread they appear to be ways to teach without following the established protocol for obtaining official sanction to do so (ie: paying the fee). It seems to me that asking the official representative of the Federation for permission to teach without official sanction is... paradoxical. I imagine therefore, that you must have asked other questions which are not in this thread.

Perhaps we can assist with those.

what you mean that you cannot get through??
I called this morning to discuss some stuff and didn't have any problem whatsoever.