did i do it again? did i kill a thread?

Hello All.

I would like to weigh in my thoughts on this issue if I may. As someone who has spent a lot of time competing in Tang Soo Do over the years on the local, state, national and international levels, and having competed in many grand championship rounds (and winning my fair share if I may humble add) I do not think handicapping is necessary.

What we are testing at a tournament is a test of “skill”. It is a mental, emotional, and physical test of that skill. If a first dan can out perform a third dan, (which I have seen on some occasions in sparring and forms) then so be it. If a first dan complains of someone having more experience, then one needs to get that experience. If we are doing Tang Soo Do, and I am competing as a first dan against a third dan in forms, it is not the form that wins the tournament, it is the performer of the hyung (form). It is the balance, timing, etc…. that wins it. If you need to improve, then train, train, train, and train some more. Now, am I as naive as to think this ideal is the norm? No. But that is the ideal of a tournament situation. I have seen people of a lower rank beet people of a higher rank, and very deservingly too. I have lost to people of lower rank then me. I have heard over the years that so and so should retire because they win all the time, and its unfair to the rest of the competitors, blah blah blah. I simple smile and say “beat him then.” That person serves a very important role, they are the person to beat. They are the bar one needs to raise to. That is what makes practitioners of any art better, the raising of the standard.

It is the fire of competition that forges ones spirit, and removes the impurities that linger there.

I wanted to compete in the cutting competition, but I was only a second gup in HDGD at the time of the tourney, but I would have gone had I known it were open to gups. I have no fear competing against third dans or what have you. I say this not out of ego, or a sense of contempt, but I know that soon I will compete in these tournaments, and you need to get the “first” one done, before you can move on to the next. If I lose, then I need more practice, and I will see everyone at the next event. If I win, then I will see everyone at the next event. Again, it is the fire of competition…it is not whether one wins or losses, it is the spark that refines our drive to get better as practitioners.

I was kind of upset when I heard Sabanim Jenko got his 4th dan because now I won’t be able to compete against him when I get dan…..

The point is, if you don’t get out there and test our self in the fire I mention above, you are, in my opinion, losing a very important opportunity to see into your spirit. I have competed in fighting, forms, team forms, and team fighting in my Tang Soo Do tournament career, and I have grown a lot from it. Some of the proudest moments I have are 2nd place trophies I worked hard to get. One grand champion I won in forms I felt I did not deserve because I was not truly tested to achieve it. And that is all part and parcel with the “game”. BUT, it is the journey of the competition, not the award that is the most beneficial.

I think a grand champion system, like the one SBN Jenko talked about is a great idea. The best of the ranks present. I will be as active in HDGD tournaments (or maybe more so) as I have been in Tang Soo Do tourneys. I, for one, plan on being there next year, if they are holding the event again. I hope so…


Haidong!

Michael Tabone

What ever happened to standing in front of another competitor and simply saying, "Here I am, this is I.".

[Western] Fencing places a strong emphasis on competition. When we square off, we are just two individuals who want the same thing; victory. We are expressing ourselves in the truest way possible. A handicap would only cheapen the whole experience.

While I've never been to a cutting competition, I would like to make a general comment.

I tend to agree with Charles. In judo, the highest belts are held by the best fighters, that is, in order to get a 3rd dan you have to beat a 3rd dan. If cutting is really the sine qua non of sword arts (youtube videos of people cutting bamboo with dull bastard swords aside), why shouldn't it be the same? In order to get a 3rd dan, you need to out cut a 3rd dan. This line of thought supposes that you already know the required forms for that rank.

Ok, and what do we do with the plethora of instant "franchise masters" running around? It's only common sense that a strong student (1?+) with some cutting experience could potentially wipe the floor with certain "franchise masters". I can think of at least 7-8 1? to 3? student who could easily blow away some of the 4? instructors out there.

I think divisions should be open. I couldn't care less if I'm facing a 28? Grand Ultimate Master with 100 years of experience; to me, he's just another human being, same as I. If I lose, so what? I gave it everything I had, and was fairly beaten by a better man. (For the record, I'd eat my sword before I'd let myself lose to a guy who calls himself "Grand Ultimate Master".)

I guess the argument has sort of lost sight of the objective of the exercise here. There's a problem. Lack of entries in cutting competition in regional competition(s).

May not be a problem if we were to have a national level competition (more potential competitors), but who knows. Problem may be due to the fact that there are just a few excellent cutters in the region, everybody knows who they are, and so many folks who know they aren't as good don't bother to enter. It becomes a problem in that with less than a critical mass of competitors, the competition event is cancelled. Now these folks may come to the overall event (to do forms), but that has no effect on the fact that the cutting competition is cancelled. Which is unfortunate, as cutting is one of the unique marketing points for HDGD.

I know, the simplistic solution is, let's get some more folks up to snuff in cutting. What that means in practice is there might not be any regional cutting competitions for one or two years while that occurs. The handicap proposal is meant as a way to encourage less experienced cutters to compete, while at the same time keep such competitions challenging for the more experienced cutters.

CB wrote: "Ok, and what do we do with the plethora of instant "franchise masters" running around?"

I would hope the embarassment would force them either to improve or drop out.

That may also be the mindset of the students, hence the low level of participation.

Well, it seems that the favoring opinion in this thread is that there should be no handicap system put into place. I have to admit that I'm a bit surprised at this. I thought it would be the opposite. Personally, I'm in favor of such a system.

Something else to consider is that tournaments (at least the local events) are held primarily for the host(s) to earn additional money. Having a couple/few proven competitors enter could mean that numerous other potential competitors abstain from entering. That's not good from an economic standpoint and for those proven cutters to enter could mean that they are met with some degree of disdain from both the host(s) and other competitors.

The underlying attitude here seems to be that of "survival of the fittest." However, given the situation, do you think the proven cutters should refrain from entering local competitions? Do you think that for them to continue to compete in the local events says something negative about them? Would it be more honorable for them to "step aside" and not enter the local competitions?

I think if I got to the point that my competition was no longer competition, I would rather enter a "demo" cutting event than a competition. What's the point if there's no one left to beat? I think this may, indeed say a lot about a persons character. I like the inclusion of non-rated demo events, i.e., no prizes awarded, just a way to satisfy ego by performing and advertisement without competing in the actual cutting competition.

I agree. Another attractive feature of doing cutting demos is that the demonstrator is free to use techniques and combinations that might not be allowed in a competition event, thus allowing for more creative expression.

Just a thought (I get them every so often, but not that frequently....):

What if we did a cutting event similar to the way a board breaking competition is done? In our local area, the TKD school sponsors two major competitioins a year, with between 120 and 170 competitors of all ranks. It is solidly geared towards giving the maximum number of people tournament experience, while still maintaining some level of competition in the upper divisions.

So, for the board breaking event, everyone can compete by their division (age, gender, belt level), and medals or trophies are awarded accordingly. The divisions are set up so everyone who enters will win some prize (1st, 2nd, or 3rd). Thus, the maximum number of people can get some level of participation and some level of experience, and some level of success in a breaking competition. Then, only those first-place winners green-belt or above may compete for the Grand Champion prize. The Grand Championship is broken only into 3 divisions: Under 10, >10 Males, and >10 Females. There is one Grand Champion per each of these major divisions. Thus, winning the large prize involves 'real' competion, and a test of your skill, measured directly against the best of your peers in that event.

Instead of a handicap, the Grand Championship for breaking uses a 'round robin' approach: each board break technique is awarded a point value, with a set number of extra points added for jumping, spinning, flying, or multiple board techniques. Thus, everyone knows exactly what the 'point score' of their technique will be - if they are successful. The lowest ranked competitor starts, performing the highest point-value breaking combination he feels confident he can make successfully (because, of course, zero points are awarded for a failed break). The next competitor in line is the next highest ranked individual, who will know exactly what point score he needs to beat his predecessor, and can adjust his planned technique accordingly, if needed. The process continues, through all the competitors, finishing with the highest ranked student last. This way, there isn't really a handicap, but the highest ranked students are required to exceed the performance of the lower ranked students (not tie or come close) in order to win the event.

Applying this to cutting, you can expand the event to have multiple divisions (just like you do in sparring or forms or breaking), with lesser prizes awarded for your performance against evenly-matched peers. Again, everyone who enters gets experience, gets to compete at a reasonable level, and gets some trophy/medal/whatever. Perhaps you could use a set 'qualifier' cutting sequence for this part of the competition. Then, only the first place winners above a TBD belt level (chosen for safety reasons more than anything) would compete in the Grand Championship tournament for the top prize (sword). Since I assume there won't be a '9 and under' division for the cutting competition ( ), you can break into two divisions (male/female), or just leave it as one division, depending on the number of entrants. The only additional work on your part would be that someone would have to establish and distribute some point scores for specific numbers/directions/sequences/styles of cuts.

This would imply that to continue competing is in some way dishonorable. I don't think that's necessarily so. They are competing within the rules just like every other competitor. Even a seasoned student can have a bad day ("one wrong cut") so the competition is always open. Yes the more skilled competitor will have the odds in their favour but it's not a certainty.

I personally don't have the most experience cutting and probably won't be winning any competitions any time soon but that wouldn't stop me from entering a competiton should the opportunity arise. It's a personal challenge. I think a student that remove themself from a cutting compeition because they don't think they'll win is missing the point.

It's a cliche` but it's not about winning or beating the other guy, but about pushing yourself and your training so you can get to a position to beat the other guy. Essentially, the journey not the destination.

....hmmm, anymore over-used catch-phrases I can throw in there?...nope

Having competed in numerous tournaments over the years, I could not agree with you more.

I think you first have to decide what the purpose of the cutting competition is. To have a fun time competing? Pressure test students? Demonstrate competence? Win a prize?

Depending upon the answer, which of course may be different for each person and may be a combination of several purposes, then a handicap system may be appropriate and/or a classification system. Or simply a sudden elimination event, mimicing the real combat world.

It can all be good. Just depends upon expectations and goals.

My 2 cents.

Regards,

I think it applies to me -_-;;



So, I assume that Casey, Chris and john would not be entering the competitions anymore?