From: Anthony_Boyd Sent: 20/08/2001 6:55 AM
I hope a lot of people reply to this thread, even if the differences are minor between what you've been taught and what Shane has described.
In my school I was taught first like Shane's second description. At that time I was taught that this style was for the moggum only. When my Ka-gum arrived from whatever part of China assembles them, I was shown the pal-to (draw) again and it was like Shane's first description. I was told at that time that this was for the jingum. The one difference in what I learned from the two methods Shane has presented is that I was told to aim for a target of opportunity with with the pommel rather than specifically practicing for one definity location. I might strike to the chin if the opponent is low or the wrist if she is standing, etc.
Trimming the fat off what I was told, they were saying that one is an introductory technique for when body position is of more importance than fine detail and the second is for when the student is ready to start working on the fine details. You should find this happens a lot in the specific methods for drawing the weapon. As students progress and as they gradually shift away from moggum based practice to ka-gum and jingum based practice, their attention will be drawn to finer and finer details which were irrelevent at the beginning, as even entering the stances was a challenge. Crawl, then walk, then run, then develop ki-powered flight.
It seems to be appropriate to use one technique for moggum and another technique for ka-gum and jingum.
Who's next?
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From: CandleKilla Sent: 22/08/2001 7:57 PM
After reading the first post, I went out and tried both techniques. The second one seems to be the standard gumbup used in most dojangs. In my humble opinion, the first technique seems like Mr. Gwak's unique style. From watching the turtle press video, I can imagine Master Gwak performing ssang su #8 as Shane describes . It is very powerful way to do ssang su gum bup #8 but it is not what I can use due to speed limitation of my body; I find the first one to take slight more time to execute. When I teach this particular technique, I just teach the second style.
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From: Upperclassman Brian Sent: 05/09/2001 7:02 PM
That's very interesting, but it makes me ask how many Ssang-su Gum Bup forms have 'fat' to be 'trimmed off?' One that I know of is in Ssang-su Gum Bup 2; Anthony already explained one part as having "high, knees-up, spinning jump" in another post, while I've seen that part taught to newer students as a 180 turn while walking forward (basically doing everything there in but the actual jump). Are there that many more than that? When are we supposed to learn/start implementing them all?
Argh, would write more but it's off to the dojang for me .
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From: Anthony_Boyd Sent: 05/09/2001 8:31 PM
When?
Why, when you can of course!
The step/turn thing you mention is done here too. I think there are some schools that teach it that way exclusively and leave the jumping to ssang-su gumbub 5. In my dojang it depends on the athletic ability of the student. After a less-athletic student begins to show signs of improved strength and endurance as a result of all this sword-swingin' exercise the demands on them are increased.
Personally, I tend to think the step/turn is more sensible but the jump is dynamic, powerful and fun.
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From: Yin Sent: 06/09/2001 11:32 AM
It's been a while since i've posted....
I agree with Anthony, I feel that if the student is capable of doing the style in that manner than they should try it out, if not then stick with the form that suits you. My guess is that the "extra trimmings" is what customizes that forms to work best with each practitioner, and yes in the end, if all the extra "trimmings" or "fat" is removed, the "original" form still exists, or maybe better put, the intended form still exists.
It's kinda like having different interpretations of works of literature... the literature is still the literature, but opinions as to what the literature means vary like the number of stars in the night sky
.
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Recommend Message 7 of 1 in Discussion
From: Aaron Sent: 06/09/2001 11:36 AM
When I was taught sskb2, and when I have seen other people learn it, originally we learned it without the jump, and once we more or less understood where the cut was, we had to jump. I was taught the opening to sskb6 in the same way: he had me do the foot work before the jump, but instead of jumping, just slid my foot through into the landing position, and once I more or less could do that, he made me jump...
Interestingly, in sskb4, during the spinning sequence at the end, I have seen a jump added there, has anyone else seen or done that?
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From: Upperclassman Brian Sent: 06/09/2001 3:51 PM
Ok, thanks. See, due to unusual circumstances of my training, I learned forms with the jumps in them before I learved that you could do them without jumping. I was thining of sskb6, with its opening jump, as well. I had assumed that these jumps were more than 'extra trimmings' to be removed but more of something that you waited till black belt to start implementing. I see now though; that means that I should start jumping more then.
How about sskb9? The cart-wheel at the end: is it at it fullest a two handend cart-wheel? a one handed cart-wheel? or no handed (airial....aireal...sp?). Luckily I'm athletic enough to start it out as one handed but any more than that is pushing it .
Thanks again for the replies.
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Recommend Message 9 of 1 in Discussion
From: Aaron Sent: 06/09/2001 10:45 PM
I remember my instructor (Ron) telling me that that can be done as an ariel (I don't know the spelling either!)...I guess that it all just depends on what the practicioner can do. I remember discussion about putting a butterfly kick in there, but I remember trying for fun, and had a hard time getting into the proper stance after it... Can anyone do it with the no-handed cartwheel?
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From: Yin Sent: 07/09/2001 11:20 AM
I think it's aerial... i think... to many hours playing THPS2
I've never personally even tried a one handed cartwheel for sskg9, let alone a no-handed one, but i saw this small kung-u guy that practiced in the same room as us, and he was trying his darndest to do one... hard by the looks of it...
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From: Upperclassman Brian Sent: 07/09/2001 2:18 PM
Butterfly kick: Cool! Some Tae Kwon Club students just taught me how to do those last night. I guess that could be a very personal, stylized way of doing it.
Tony Hawk: Nollie+Mellon/Crossbone=Sick Score!!
One Handed Cartwheel: Actually, a word with my instructor made me realize that my feet fall a little to far forward when attemping this. I guess I've got a while to train before I'm good at it yet. I don't think that an aerial is too far off though. As it is, my left hand only lightly touches the ground. See, a Hap Ki Do buff (I think he goes by Taesan on this community) taught me that if you try to do more than fall forward in a cartwheel, it goes alot better. Try 'jumping' up and forward as you do a cartwheel and you'll be doing them with one hand in no time.
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From: Yin Sent: 11/09/2001 9:27 AM
butterfly kick as in mid-move your body is practically horizontal to the ground and if you're holding a weapon it spins beneath you (ala darth maul and his absolutely useless hop skip and jump.. looked cool though... in the movie?)
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From: andrew Sent: 30/10/2001 3:21 AM
Dear Shane,
My experience of instruction for ssangsu 8 would seem to be much less than the other posters. I don’t recall being shown any particular method of drawing the sword for the initial move. However, reading our post turned a light on and added meaning to that initial move. Therefore, thank you for bringing the topic up.
Since reading your post I have adopted the 2nd version. Actually making this technique work is still some way off because currently I am only practising with a mokkom. The Kwanjang hasn’t noticed, or decided not to comment, on my new interpretation of the draw. I don’t have much of a sample of how other, Korean, students in the dojang I practise at execute the beginning of ssangsu 8 but those that I have seen don’t seem to be doing anything in particular when they begin ssangsu 8.
Interestingly, on the Hokkushin Ittoryu CD-rom (see my waegom post) there is a similar strike from the kneeling position. The sensei performs the strike very similar to how you describe in No.1. That is, the sword and sheaf are pulled sharply forwards and down as if striking the opponent’s arm or hand. The sword and hilt are then thrust back into the belt and the sword drawn and a cut made. For this, the sensei only uses the left hand.
Methodology:
It seems to me that this technique is to be used when the opponent is very close to one. The idea would be to stun the opponent with the strike and as he takes a step back to recover we have time to draw our sword and make the cut. From this premise I think it is preferable to do the low turn because it would seem to generate more upward energy and provide some sort of protection while doing the turn if the opponent was able to draw his sword (because our position would force him to chose a downward cut thereby slowing his counter???)
I have a question for Anthony.
I know Anthony likes to consider the tensile strength of blades and whether they can be clashed together during combat and not brake. What is the danger of damaging the hilt when using this technique? If the hilt does become damaged wouldn’t that potentially inhibit your ability to fight with the sword? I believe you have damaged a couple of hilts. Was the sword useable?
Regards,
Andrew
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From: Anthony_Boyd Sent: 31/10/2001 3:54 AM
A couple of hilts? Lord Thundering!
Before I get a nickname like Hilt-Breaker or some-such nonsense let me clarify that there was only one hilt incident in my past and it was loose not damaged. Once it became loose the upper pin shifted. It took about 4 seconds to repair once a knowledgeable person (my master) looked at it. Of course, as this is my life we are discussing, he didn't look at it until I had to use it that way on three or four cutting trips.
The only thing that was affected during this period was my imagination as I dreamed up all the results of my blade flying away. Cutting was unchanged.
I can't see soft target impacts such as leather/studded leather armour or biological targets like flesh and bone making much of a difference to the hilt in a strike. Even repeated banging on a hard surface like rock should have no real effect other than a cosmetic one.
Posted: Sat Nov 20, 2004 10:59 pm 
