From: andrew Sent: 24/06/2002 8:35 PM
Dear Mike,
It seems to be both depending on the instructor's interpretation. It is either a strike to someone already prone on the floor (or to a standing person's foot?).
In the strike, the idea of having the free hand on the back of the blade is presumably to provide stability and guidence.
If you are defending with this then it would seem to be a defence from hwaengchung baegi or, perhaps from a upwards cut from sodosae. However, I don't think that this is a practical defence. To me, relying on the hand resting on (not holding) the blade seems weak.
Comments?
Andrew
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Recommend Message 3 of 10 in Discussion
From: Ryan Sent: 24/06/2002 11:01 PM
I have more often than not been told that "the pickle dip" is the finishing blow to someone on the ground. I tend to agree that as a block, this movement seems weak.
If it is a finishing blow, the "pickle dip" seems to be oddly located at the very beginning of #12. (not the gumbup necesarily describes a certain sequence of moves, but it seems odd to start by finishing an enemy off that is on the ground)
I have heard one interpretation that is a very different. I was told by one kwan jang nim that this movement may also be done to block a thrown weapon. The weapon he described sounded a bit like a bola, (Is this the right name for the three pronged string thing I am thinking of?). The way he descirbed it, and carried out the move, this actually seemed feasible, despite the fact that I have never heard of this kind of weapon being used in Korea.
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From: Anthony_Boyd Sent: 25/06/2002 1:51 AM
Pickle Dip? You folks have weird ways of eating there...
Here's what I know about this particular technique:
The primary use that I know for this is versus chain or other entangling weapons. The drawing back of the blade toward you (especially in
is co-ordinated with the arching of the back to create a pulling or tensing effect in the enemy's weapon which the spin releases suddenly in conjunction with an anticipated yank by the enemy. From there there are at least two things you can do. The first (as in
is to use your hand to secure the chain in it's spot on your blade and spin away - taking the enemy's weapon from him and flinging it far away. The second and easiest is to just use your hand to ensure the chain slides off your blade and onto the ground.
In 12 the motions are reduced and so require more real muscle power to accomplish the same feat, this time however one does not spin away but instead slides off the chain, freeing the sword and gets inside the reach of the attacker to kill him quickly.
I've never heard it referred to as a block or even a thrust on a grounded target although it can clearly be used for those applications as well.
Are there any more applications for this that haven't been mentioned? I love talking about the possibilities!
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Recommend Message 5 of 10 in Discussion
From: Ron Sent: 30/06/2002 1:30 PM
Hot doggies! I can finally post (from a different machine).
I know the move as it is descricbed by Tony and also a thrust to the opponent's midsection (not prone on the ground or to a foot). The thrust to the midsection is the interpretation in #12. The blade isn't at quite such a vertical angle in that interpretation. The disarming maneuver is the interpretation in #8. At some point in the training, sodo se becomes pan sodo se and everything isn't as low as it is in practice.
Katori Shinto Ryu uses lots of reinforced blade techniques as found in #12. The books on The Deity and the Sword (from that ryuha) provide a good understanding of those particular techniques, especially the blocking. I know that we (Hankuk) use reinforced blocking techniques that turn into thrusts. (I think I had an article on that in Black Belt, once upon a time.)
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Recommend Message 6 of 10 in Discussion
From: andrew Sent: 09/07/2002 2:59 AM
Thanks to Anthony and Ron for the correction. I had not really thought of particular moves as being of use against non-sword weapons.
Your comments have made me think about how I approach doing this move and I will have to re-evaluate my movements to ensure that I am achieving the affect you describe.
Two questions immediately come to mind:
1. Have you practised the movement against an entrapping weapon to see if it actually works as advertised?
2. Which other techniques in the Ssangsu techniques are there primary as a defence or counter to non-sword weapons? (full list please
Andrew
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Recommend Message 7 of 10 in Discussion
From: Anthony_Boyd Sent: 09/07/2002 5:48 AM
In the Dangsan dojang, where I spent several long afternoons comparing forms differences with Ahn Kwanjang, I was able to try this maneuver out as I only had been shown the application where you slide the chain off. I hadn't even considered the opportunity to pull the weapon away and fire it off into the great beyond. The device we used was a skipping rope and it worked wonderfully well. The rapid, low rotation away really generates a lot of force even if you only way 5lbs like I do.
The difficult part was getting the entangling effect... I guess that failure is good for us and a problem for the evil-baddies to solve, eh? Eventually we gave up on trying to get a good entrapment (yes I got whacked in the side of the head one too many times) and just wrapped it around my ka-gum. After that he pulled and I followed through successfully with both of the techniques I suggested.
In Uijongbu on the weekend this topic came up as a new student was learning 8. I brought up the thrusting and was rewarded with a short practice on using the reinforced block. Nice bonus. In the situation presented by 8 it doesn't seem likely the attacker would be close enough to stab. I'm still mulling the situation presented by Ron for 12.
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Recommend Message 8 of 10 in Discussion
From: Pat Sent: 09/07/2002 9:27 AM
I have just been taught all of #8 and my kwanjannim told me that the 'pickle dip' is a killing cut to a prone opponent as well as a block to the sword of an attacker standing in front of you. While the stance as practiced is not a really strong block, if the sword were actually in someone's body then that and the hand under the elbow would stabilize the sword to be quite an effective block.
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Recommend Message 9 of 10 in Discussion
From: Upperclassman Brian Sent: 10/07/2002 6:10 AM
After talking with my Sabunim on this matter, I found out that the actual term employed is "the pickle stick". I erroneously informed Mike that it was the pickle dip. A thousand excuses.
Wow, thanks for the insight. I never even thought to bring non-curved sword weapons into the equasion at any point. To tell you the truth, I have thought about sword versus spear (all i hear from kung fu is spear is the strongest weapon), but more in a kendo, 1 on 1 sparring sense rather than in gumdo forms.
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Recommend Message 10 of 10 in Discussion
From: Freshcav Sent: 10/07/2002 11:05 PM
Well Brian all I have to say is...
Posted: Sat Nov 20, 2004 11:03 pm 
