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Charles Bourque
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Post subject: Re: Kumdo/Kendo & Reality Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 7:28 pm |
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Joined: Tue Dec 21, 2004 8:07 pm Posts: 1088 Location: Canada
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bradgraper wrote: Bent the sword on bamboo? Wow. I've never bent a sword regardless of how bad the cut was, on mats or bamboo. Hmmm. I'll assume you're using a jingum issued by the World HDGD Federation.  I'd be confident taking a swing at a kitchen stove with those things. Some of the Japanese swords aren't as forgiving and will bend on poorly executed cuts. So far, I must have cut through some 20,000 or more bamboo poles without having a bend in my WHDGDF. The worst I ever got was a chip on the bottom half, from hitting the stand. On the other hand, my Japanese swords occasionally bent on failed bamboo cuts, especially in the 3" and over range. The types of swords we buy from the WHDGDF are not the same quality as those used in Korea some 1600 years ago. Heck, they're not the same as the ones used even 600 years ago. 
_________________ Charlie
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Tom_Urso
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Post subject: Re: Kumdo/Kendo & Reality Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 10:24 pm |
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Joined: Sun Feb 13, 2005 12:43 am Posts: 406 Location: Clemson, South Carolina, USA
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Charles Bourque wrote: Eh... Double post. Actually, I meant to ask - how well would a traditional Korean sword fare against a traditional Korean helmet? Would it bend or chip at all? I've bent my sword on failed cuts involving straw and/or bamboo, I can't imagine what type of damage a sword would take after a powerful blow to a helm...  In Japan, there was/is a type of shito tameshigiri (blade testing) called kabuto wari or helmet breaking. Essentially a swordsman attempts to make a gash or "break" into the surface of the helmet. According to the book "Shinkendo Tameshigiri" by Obata Toshishiro, kabuto wari demonstrations were competitions between sword smiths & armor smiths. It logical that one can infer testing the strength of the helmet against a sword was necessary since attacks to the head were used in battle. Please keep in mind that most of modern Kendo's major development was during the peace time of feudal Japan. A time when major battles did not occur often. Furthermore, it is currently practiced as a martial sport or for character refinement, rather than an effective method of combat. Kendo does not reflect all JSA, both in terms of content & execution. There are several Koryu (literally "old school") that are drastically different from Kendo curriculum-wise. As for Kendo's effectiveness in battle, I don't think any serious Kendo student (10+ yrs) really gives that idea much attention. They train for the enjoyment of training, not for application in battle.
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bradgraper
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Post subject: Re: Kumdo/Kendo & Reality Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 11:27 pm |
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Joined: Sat Nov 27, 2004 11:18 am Posts: 400 Location: Edgewood, MD
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Re: type of sword I use. I have used several WHDGDF jingums. Unfortunately i do not yet own one. One of these days i will. 4 children sucked up all the money.
The sword i have cut the most poles with is a Cold Steel Warrior. Not nearly as well balanced as a jingum, fairly tip heavy, but it's through hardened and tough as nails. Not a nick, curl, or any other kind of damage to the blade, and I've made loads of bad cuts, including through knots/joints. In fact I have NO qualms about cutting through joints in the bamboo, i've done it many times, the sword doesn't care at all. And it makes a lovely sound, so it's easy to work on geometry. I also own three different Cheness katanas, and am happy with them as well. Rugged and reliable. No edge damage on any of them either.
Of course I had a good teacher (Casey). That's probably the best reason I haven't bent any swords.
I will get a WHDGDF jingum one of these days, though. Hopefully within the next two years.
_________________ "To desire the end is to desire the means: if you are not prepared to do what is neccessary to achieve it, you never wanted it at all."
-- S.M. Stirling
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bradgraper
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Post subject: Re: Kumdo/Kendo & Reality Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 11:39 pm |
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Joined: Sat Nov 27, 2004 11:18 am Posts: 400 Location: Edgewood, MD
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Yeah, I've heard of kabuto wari. I would expect that was a demonstration of armorer's and swordsmith's skill, not a common every day event. It would be a challenge to get a sword to bite into a steel helmet without fatally damaging the blade, given the uneven quality of their steel back then. Every sword was different. For that matter, there would very possibly be differences from helmet to helmet as well.
_________________ "To desire the end is to desire the means: if you are not prepared to do what is neccessary to achieve it, you never wanted it at all."
-- S.M. Stirling
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Ben W
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Post subject: Re: Kumdo/Kendo & Reality Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 3:25 am |
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Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 7:46 pm Posts: 16 Location: Brisbane, Australia
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Charles Bourque wrote: The techniques that are very popular in kendo would be a bit hard to translate into amoured combat, but there's no denying that a snappy flick of the sword to most unarmoured opponents could cause lots of damage. Everytime I see Lance effortlessly just flick his sword through pork meat/bone, I'm left with a new level of respect and appreciation for the amount of damage a blade can do. Big, powerful, loopy cuts aren't necessary to cleave flesh, espcially if you're targeting wrists and abdomen. Are we underestimating the kendo 'snappy flick' a little? An experienced kendoka hits with the force of a freight train with what looks like a no effort or wind up at all...
_________________ "People in this world look at things mistakenly, and think that what they do not understand must be the void. This is not the true void. It is bewilderment." - Miyomoto Musashi
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Charles Bourque
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Post subject: Re: Kumdo/Kendo & Reality Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 3:00 pm |
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Joined: Tue Dec 21, 2004 8:07 pm Posts: 1088 Location: Canada
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Ben W wrote: Charles Bourque wrote: The techniques that are very popular in kendo would be a bit hard to translate into amoured combat, but there's no denying that a snappy flick of the sword to most unarmoured opponents could cause lots of damage. Everytime I see Lance effortlessly just flick his sword through pork meat/bone, I'm left with a new level of respect and appreciation for the amount of damage a blade can do. Big, powerful, loopy cuts aren't necessary to cleave flesh, espcially if you're targeting wrists and abdomen. Are we underestimating the kendo 'snappy flick' a little? An experienced kendoka hits with the force of a freight train with what looks like a no effort or wind up at all... I'm pointing out that you don't need the "force of a freight train" to cut an unarmoured opponent. It's not an issue of who hits harder; it's about how much force is needed to cleave flesh and/or armour. Since kendo targets areas of the body that are usually well protected by armour (men, do, kote), it lends itself better to unarmoured dueling as opposed to fully armoured battlefield warfare.
_________________ Charlie
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Ben W
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Post subject: Re: Kumdo/Kendo & Reality Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 3:15 am |
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Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 7:46 pm Posts: 16 Location: Brisbane, Australia
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Charles Bourque wrote: Ben W wrote: Charles Bourque wrote: The techniques that are very popular in kendo would be a bit hard to translate into amoured combat, but there's no denying that a snappy flick of the sword to most unarmoured opponents could cause lots of damage. Everytime I see Lance effortlessly just flick his sword through pork meat/bone, I'm left with a new level of respect and appreciation for the amount of damage a blade can do. Big, powerful, loopy cuts aren't necessary to cleave flesh, espcially if you're targeting wrists and abdomen. Are we underestimating the kendo 'snappy flick' a little? An experienced kendoka hits with the force of a freight train with what looks like a no effort or wind up at all... I'm pointing out that you don't need the "force of a freight train" to cut an unarmoured opponent. It's not an issue of who hits harder; it's about how much force is needed to cleave flesh and/or armour. Since kendo targets areas of the body that are usually well protected by armour (men, do, kote), it lends itself better to unarmoured dueling as opposed to fully armoured battlefield warfare. Sorry, then I misunderstood you... Even as someone who does gumdo, I must say I think I'd prefer a long polearm or something on a battlefield...something that kept me as far away from the people trying to kill me as possible!
_________________ "People in this world look at things mistakenly, and think that what they do not understand must be the void. This is not the true void. It is bewilderment." - Miyomoto Musashi
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bradgraper
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Post subject: Re: Kumdo/Kendo & Reality Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 6:09 am |
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Joined: Sat Nov 27, 2004 11:18 am Posts: 400 Location: Edgewood, MD
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That's why bows are great. It's really hard to block an arrow. 
_________________ "To desire the end is to desire the means: if you are not prepared to do what is neccessary to achieve it, you never wanted it at all."
-- S.M. Stirling
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chowfarn
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Post subject: Re: Kumdo/Kendo & Reality Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 2:36 am |
Joined: Sat Oct 17, 2009 2:16 am Posts: 3 Location: Sydney, Australia
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I was told by my Kumdo (Kendo) master that a lot of techniques are different.
It was mentioned before could not be on top of the head - head strike would be at the neck side/temples.
Wrist strikes were on the inside to cut to avoid armor & cut the tendon.
Trusts were at the shoulder area in between the armour,to disable the arm.
Even Jo Chun Sa (Jodan in Kendo) would be different as the head armor would not allow the correct holding of the sword.
Even waist cuts in HDGD would have trouble with armor.
_________________ Leon Withrington LiuHeBaFa Kungfu & Dayan Qigong (Senior Student) Kumdo / Kendo (2nd Dan) Haidong Gumdo (1st Gup)
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Charles Bourque
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Post subject: Re: Kumdo/Kendo & Reality Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 2:28 pm |
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Joined: Tue Dec 21, 2004 8:07 pm Posts: 1088 Location: Canada
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chowfarn wrote: I was told by my Kumdo (Kendo) master that a lot of techniques are different.
It was mentioned before could not be on top of the head - head strike would be at the neck side/temples.
Wrist strikes were on the inside to cut to avoid armor & cut the tendon.
Trusts were at the shoulder area in between the armour,to disable the arm.
Even Jo Chun Sa (Jodan in Kendo) would be different as the head armor would not allow the correct holding of the sword.
Even waist cuts in HDGD would have trouble with armor. Yeah, jochunse doesn't really work if you have a helm or bulky shoulder-plates. I've seen people bring their sword to their right side in a vertical stance, a-la-palsangse.
_________________ Charlie
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