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Learning about other religions or working/being/associating with people of other faiths isn't any problem -- I do both all the time. Meditation is fine, and even encouraged and taught in the Bible, although the Christian and Zen views of meditation are very different. When we meditate in class, I don't ever make an issue of it, I just do what comes naturally to me, even if it isn't 'authentic' Zen.

The problems I face come in the areas of practice, consent, and teaching others.

Practice: In other MAs (I have had next to no problem at my dojang in this area), things are done that are directly opposed to my personal Christian belief. (I word it this way because everyone has to live and act according to his own conscience, and if some other Christian comes to a different conclusion about these things, I will not judge them.) Some MA dojos or dojangs have Buddhist statues and incense in them, that are to be bowed to, upon entering or leaving the school. Some internal MAs incorporate elements of Reiki, a belief that the 'universal ki' (life-force of the universe) can be harnessed and channeled to heal others or improve MA performance (this is very closely related to pantheism, a denial of the personhood of God, or the uniqueness of Man in the created world). If I participated in these types of activities, I would be denying some very foundational things in my faith. So, in this case the decision is easy: I won't participate in a MA that includes these practices.

Teaching: This is the next level of concern, and again, it hasn't been any problem in Kumdo, but it has been a concern in my TKD practice. Some things are taught at the school that I disagree with, like the belief that ki is a spiritual component of your being that can be strengthened or drawn on by yelling, deep breathing, or specific exercises, or that it resides in a particular place in your lower abdomen, and generates power through meditation. I'm a 'big girl', so in my own practice, I can ignore what I disagree with. I know that my abdominal and lower back muscles, along with my hip flexors, support all the major muscle groups and motions in striking, kicking, etc., and these are strengthened by certain exercises. I know that the deep breathing exercises stimulate the parasympathetic nervous system and lower my blood pressure, dilate my pupils, reduce my heartrate, improve fine motor control, etc. I know that yelling from the diaphragm tightens all my obliques, lats, and abdominal rectus muscles, adding support and power to my kicks and strikes. So, I can benefit from the exercises and what is taught, without buying into the philosophy/spiritual matters that I disagree with. When I teach, though, I am obligated, as a representative of my Master Instructor, to teach what he wants taught, and do it faithfully. I cannot teach something I believe to be wrong. In this case, I had to ask my KJN if it would be OK if I could be excused from teaching this part of the curriculum. I deeply respect my KJN (he is also a strong Christian believer, BTW), and this was the single most difficult thing I have ever had to discuss with him.

Consent: This is the real "gray area". Suppose there are things that I disagree with, but I can live with having them around (like the above issues related to ki)? I would never make a scene in class, or make an issue of the fact that I disagree--it wouldn't be right or appropriate. However, I have to ask the question: "How much am I supporting what is being taught, in the minds of others, simply by not saying that I disagree?" I've had students in the TKD class during the week that were in my Sunday School class at church on Sunday morning. Several students in TKD are also students in the Christian school where I volunteer. Two of the TKD students are my own children. Many know me because my husband and I own the local Christian book and church supply store in town. So, whether it is justified or not, some people look at my husband and me as examples of "what Christians are supposed to do." Now suppose someone who (rightly or wrongly) views me this way has doubts themselves about these teachings, but they see me participating, and decide it must be OK. I have now become indirectly responsible for them violating their own conscience. This may seem like splitting hairs, but it is extremely important to me, and something that I spent months researching before feeling comfortable to participate in and help teach at this particular dojang. It is still something that I watch continually, with prayer.

This is probably more information than you ever wanted, but you asked . Also, it was cathartic for me to get it written out. If you are interested, I can point you to threads on other forums where these exact issues have been wrestled with in great detail (I actually joined three different MA forums when I started TKD, just to get more insight on exactly these issues).

Also, I hope you don't mind that I moved this discussion to "Philosophy".

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Bruce, I will be happy to discuss this question. Please give me some time to think about it more, and I'll see if I can put some thoughts together.

In the meantime: SHORT ANSWER:
There are some things in eastern philosophy and religion that are contrary to Christianity. There are also some things that are different than my western/American culture. I'm as human as anyone else, and I have to struggle to keep these two separate. For me to participate in a MA, 'different than my culture' is OK, but 'contrary to my faith' is not. You will have Christians that are uncomfortable with elements of Buddhism/Taoism in the class because they see it as hostile to their faith. You will also have Americans who don't understand the cultural differences, and will reject some elements that are not contrary to Christianity, but just contrary to Christianity-as-practiced-by-Americans-in-America.

I'll write more about issues that I've seen where some religious elements creep into class. I am more interested, though, in Master Gihm's response. As a Christian from the Korean culture, I think that he would be much better able to sort out which differences are religious and which differences are cultural.

Dear Ann:

Thank you so very much. This is fine because I had not known that you had addressed the matters that you had in your previous post so I need to examine your thoughts there. BTW: It was a wonderful and heartfelt response and I for one really appreciate your effort to share your thoughts. In fact you touched on a couple of things I had not given sufficient regard to so that was a big help as well. More to come.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Dear Ann

I think what you had said are correct from a Christian point of view. I myself consider myself a born again Christian , perhaps I can share a bit of my involvement in HDGD.
Frankly I have to admit there are certain things taught in HDGD are rooted in Taoism and Buddhism religious practises especially when it comes to Ki and meditation.

Before I joined HDGD , I want to join the Japanese Kendo very much. I find it certain practises in Japanese kendo is kind of violating my Christian conscience especially in the part of bowing to the deity seat ( a small wooden altar, kamiza) before entering the dojo.
After I found out about HDGD , in my personal opinion has less religious under pinning like in Japanese Kendo. As a Christian , I am more comfortable with HDGD.

When it comes to meditation during the practise class, I still do meditation but in different mind set, that is the Christian mindset. I do not empty my mind, I use the time to pray in my heart so that my physical training in HDGD be used to strengthen my body to glorify HIM only. For non Christian will think that emptying one's mind sound very harmless, but as a Christian , a mind is dangerous ground and a battlefield, before one does something, it all start from the mind first.

When it comes to "KI" or "Chi" in Chinese, truthfully personally I do not believe in Chi or Ki will give one a superhuman strength. Although I have to admit that certain practises in developing Ki will strengthen the body and more healthier body. However I always draw the line when Ki practises are too much entwined in certain Buddhist and Taois religious practises. So far until now, always view my HDGD practises as physical training not a spiritual one.

Not just in HDGD , I am a third generation Chinese in Indonesia. There are many religious practises in my parents family are still being practised, but being a Christian sometime does bring me into a dilemma how to respond and at that the same time , I have to make a stand and trying awfully hard not to offend people of different beliefs.

Dear Ann:

I had a chance to reflect on your post over Sunday (appropriate?) and jotted a few things to myself as I read through it.

For myself, in approaching the Korean martial traditions I take a pretty “warts-and-all” approach. I am forever in awe of the Koreans and their culture as survivalists who have been given every reason in their history not to survive and have defied the odds each time. Therefore, when I delve into their martial traditions, their food, their crafts in fact any part of their culture I look to understand how that part is a reflection of their survivalist nature. In fact, in the last 50 years even the Evangelical Christian Movement has begun to figure prominently in this same Survivalist mentality, right?

Now, it does help that I myself am Buddhist so I may not feel some of the conflict that you might in being exposed to practices that are founded in Taoist, Buddhist or Confucian beliefs. And you did bring up a very important part of the martial traditions--- that of teaching those traditions. And I think this is where the discussion will get interesting. What is it that we are teaching, why and for what purpose.

For instance, bowing to the image of the arts founder is a practice heavily steeped in Confucian practice. Some arts go so far as to perform three ceremonial full bows to the image. Some burn incense before the image and some believe that the practice area is safeguarded by the spirits of the Ancestor. Some Buddhists of the Hinayana tradition will take this as a reflection of “Attachment” I suppose while Mahayana Buddhists might use it as a moment to connect with that greater Buddhist conciousness as reflected through the departed. A Christian might use it as a moment to invoke the repose of the soul of the departed. For myself I don’t see a conflict so far.

As far as the nature of “ki” well, research indicates that such beliefs as they are applied to martial traditions do not have a religious component. There are biomechanical implications but that’s about as far as it goes. About the only persons who stepped over this line were the Japanese traditionalists of the late 1800-s who were seeking to reconcile Shinto beliefs with the growing influence of Scienctific Method from the West. The compromise was a kind of “other-worldly force” which reflected spiritual intangibility with Scientific Laws. (See Don Draeger) Once again I don’t see a conflict.

As far as teaching an Ethos to students well that will probably depend on how militant your Christianity is. The Korean traditions are what they are. When I teach sword I freely acknowledge that I am teaching those skills associated with using a lethal weapon. My job, as I see it is to teach those skills while simultaneously helping the students to learn how to accept responsibility for taking on this power. Nothing new here. Even Won Hyo Gwang knew that there were problems teaching people how to kill and then not giving them a code by which they could guide themselves in that powers safe application. Hence, we have the O-Gae. I can’t see anything wrong with using Christianity as a guide for imbuing students with the same Code as long as they are free to use Christianity or some other belief system of their choosing.

Before Class I often move to a quiet part of the mat and gather my thoughts, and it is not unusual for a student to ask me what I am doing. “Praying for patience!” is my flip response most of the time. But the fact is that I am focusing my mind to provide the bast instruction I can such that I will come out of the best part of myself while inviting my students out of the best part of their Selves.

FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Dear Johan:

".....When it comes to meditation during the practise class, I still do meditation but in different mind set, that is the Christian mindset. I do not empty my mind, I use the time to pray in my heart so that my physical training in HDGD be used to strengthen my body to glorify HIM only. For non Christian will think that emptying one's mind sound very harmless, but as a Christian , a mind is dangerous ground and a battlefield, before one does something, it all start from the mind first....."

I don't know if this will help, but you may have an incorrect idea of "emptying" the mind.

Buddhism is a faith in which the Sangha ("community") is incredibly important. The idea of "emptying" ones' mind is a relatively new idea and a bit of a misinterpretation of Buddhist teachings stemming from the migration of Eastern thought into Western Culture. (This sounds like the sort of thing someone like Suzuki would be responsible for.)

If nothing else, meditation is a time of focusing, or uniting, of binding up together. The only thing that is being "emptied" are ilusions, delusions, distracts, bad feelings and so forth. At the risk of being rude, I have even heard of some people considering meditation as a good "flush," if you know what I mean. Sort of like passing all the toxic thoughts and feelings out of you and realigning with higher motives and purpose. Don't know if this helps.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

I am not comfortable with writing long posts (as some of you already know so I will write a few small paragraphs under this topic.

Just to give some background info, I was born in Korea and educated in Korea until the end of grade 10. I'm more familiar with Korean culture than western culture and my thoughts are more Korean. I have studied astrophysics, electrical engineering in university and currently studying in nuclear physics engineering. I consider myself fairly scientific person. My grandfather was a famous Buddhist scholar in Korea and I was very interested in taoism. I was born in a christian family but I was saved in Christ during my university days and I thank Jesus for all he has done for me. Praise the Lord.

To start with, I'll discuss Ki training. It is my knowledge that Ki is present in human body. With enough training, you can feel it, you can intentionally move it within your body. I haven't quite experience beyond this point. I do not think you can shoot it out of your body as a weapon (i.e. Dragon Ball Z)

I believe that concept of Ki was developed to explain the flow of energy in the body. As a martial artist, when I explain a flow of energy in gumdo motion, I would say draw ki from the ground and send it to the sword. If my student is familiar with physics, I'd explain exactly same thing in terms of wave propagation. In Chinese medicine, balance of ki is important but wouldn't a modern doctor say that balance of chemicals in your body is important? The terminology is different but I do not think believing in the concept of ki is un-christian. I believe that it is a different way of explaining energy, NOT spirit, of living being.

When I was attending Dahn Hak in Korea, I learned about energy chambers. This was very convincing and I think it is probably correct (based on my limited research and experience).

There are three inner energy chambers and four outer energy chambers. Inner chambers are ha dan jun, jung dan jun, sang dan jun (low, middle, high danjun) and outer chambers are jang shim and yong chun. Ha danjun represents power, Jung danjun represents mind and Sang danjun represents spirituality, wisdom and knowledge.

In martial art, we emphasize abdomenal breathing. Well, I couldn't find equivalent word for danjun in English. It is in fact dan jun hohup or danjun breathing (not literally breathing). This is lower danjun training or often refered as ki training. The idea is to collect ki in ha danjun.

As a christian, four outer chambers and ha danjun would be as far as I'd go. Jung danjun is bit uncertain but sang danjun is definitely something I'd not mess with. Often found on buddhist paintings or buddha statue, you can see a dot on the forehead. This is location of sang danjun. It is just too related to spiritual world.

During meditation in class, I will be doing either emptying of mind or focusing of the ki.

At the beginning of the class, emptying of mind is critical. Before you start training, you should forget about everything outside of the class. Often some students walk into the class very happy or very unhappy. These are ticking bombs. If you are too happy, too sad, excited or distracted, accident will happen and sword related accidents are not laughable. You should not have thoughts in the mind but you must be empty.

When I'm sitting during the class (which hardly happens now), I'd be concentrating on proper breathing and controlling the energy.

There would be higher level of meditation but I'm not interested in achieving enlightment or opening my heavenly channel through gumdo training so I don't work on those. This is where I draw the line in terms of Ki training.

Bowing to the shrine,

This is absolutely unacceptable for me as a christian. I trained Karate in university but when we travelled to the dojo for first time, I freaked out to learn that students had to bow to little shrine. That was the end of my karate training.

Japanese forced Koreans to bow to shrines and worship the Japanese emperor during their occupancy and a lot of Christians fought against that, were tortured and murdered.

Idol worship is not something I'd ever do. I bow to only living people or Living God.

About religion,

Christianity is not a philosophy or a concept but it is an experience with Living God. The most important thing is my personal relationship with Jesus who saved me from eternal death. God is so real than you or me and He is not something in the cloud. There are church doctrines, structure, formality, etc but these are products of culture and history.

Budha achieved enlightment under a tree when he saw a rising morning star. In original form, buddhism is about the enlightment or knowing the ultimate truth. Budha did not say that he is a deity but a lof of people seem to believe so (at least in Asia). A lot of material such as Buddha statue worshiping are added on later by people and it contains a lot of shamanistic values.

Brian, you are certainly faithful. I admire that.

I asked my friend (Linguistics Ph.D) what the English (Western) version of Ki/Chi/Mana is, and she said in this context, the closest translation is "primal energy".

I was watching a show on the Discovery Channel a few years ago. They had a Qi Gong master who also practiced acupunture. He was able to raise his hands' temperature at will, heating the patients' back. He has been training to build his Ki since he was a little boy. How can you explain this?

I have a book here, released a few years ago. It's the first ever book published on the monks of Shaolin. No party tricks here. How can you explain someone driving a spear into his throat, to the point of having the spear bend, without damaging his flesh and skin? How can he smash his ribs with an iron bar? How can he place a rice bowl on his belly and have remain there, as if it were welded in place?

You say it's ridiculous to believe in primal energy? Fine, think whatever you want. But I ask you; explain. Explain how these people can do these things.

If we read a thing, it must be true? Because it is "Shaolin" we must believe? Because these are the most famous "warrior monks" of Asia we must accept they do not engage in 'party tricks'?

Try not to confuse desire for a thing to be true with allowing yourself to feel that it is. The road to understanding the nature of ki is not so simple as checking a dictionary and saying, "Ah! Ki is energy. Now I understand."

For years Eastern martial artists have been telling Western martial artists that we of the west do not understand ki, have no concept of ki, etc. In one sense, they are right. In our ordering of principles we do not seem to have ever created a single categorization of concepts which relates exactly to ki. Instead, of a unified "ki theory" our culture has discovered similar truths and presented them scattershot and with differing intent. It does not reduce it to describe things in terms of 'wave propagation' when that will illuminate a principle more personally and clearly than another metaphor.

Look at candle snuffing as a prime example. One student might feel that they are harnessing their 'primal energy' and using the sword as a conductor to channel destructive force into snuffing the flame. Another student might feel that they are learning fine control and directing air to snuff the candle. Still another might feel that both were going on simultaneously. Still another student, and if cynicism is worth anything at all mine tells me that this would be the happiest among them, would be so caught up in just performing the exercise that no thought of what was happening would ever enter their heads.

My father is a minister, and hearing about the struggles that some people face trying to "mix" martial arts and faith shows me how enlightened he is, and how lucky I have been. When I say enlightened what I mean is that he trusts me to choose what is right based on the example he sets.

When I first began HDGD the mother of an old friend, from a very small town we had lived in when I was in elementary school, wrote to me to ensure I was not 'straying from the path.' I had put that letter of my mind but these posts have brought it back to me.

She was worried about the violence and she was worried about me because of her concept of the spirtuality of martial arts. There is a lot of prejudice going around -- by Christians just as much as any other faith. Prejudgement based on incomplete preconception. That hardly obeys the commandment to love one's neighbor as one loves oneself. Trying to understand is an expression of love.

After having heard what I was up to in Asia, and having last seen me as an 'angry young man' of 21 she was quite worried about the state of my soul. It startled me at the time and I am sure I handled it badly, but now I can see what she didn't do. She didn't turn her back on me. She didn't point her finger at my father and make insinuations. Instead, she wrote to me, not to lecture, but to understand. I, harshly I am sure, told her what she wanted to know.

As Johan mentioned, HDGD does not require much of us that might interfere with the practice of Christianity. I think, it is harder for patriots to follow the art than for Christians! That aside, faith is personal and the relationship with God, individual. We each have a path to follow and only we are responsible for how that journey goes. Everything we do is by choice. Perhaps one of the hardest things to learn as a Christian, is to have faith in our ability to choose.

Linguistics is not the study of translation, for what it is worth, although some linguists may be translation scholars as well, it is a specialized field...

I strongly disagree with this translation in the context of martial arts. In fact, I think this translation is the root of many evils in the martial arts. I've said it before, I'll say it again, if you want an IDEA about what Qi means, study Chinese. If you have a basic idea of how things work, do a reverse lookup on the word. Then give up. Qi is perhaps the most mistranslated word in Chinese.



With no training in how to do so, I am also able to change the temperature in my hands. So what? It has nothing to do with any mystical energy.



Sorry, they are parlor tricks. YOU tell ME what about qi could make a bowl stick to you? What about qi can have any of the above effects?

Let me give you counter examples. A friend of mine was a Thai boxer and conditioned his shins to the point that he could kick poles and solid metal structures at full speed like it was nothing. I personally used to condition my abdomen to take kicks, and at one point was able to take a side kick from someone much larger than I (both height and weight) with no physical pain. I didn't use mystical energy, I did tens of thousands of situps, repeatedly hit myself with progressively denser objects, and had people kick my stomach as an exersize (and as a...PARLOR TRICK). I don't even bruise there any more, although I have lost a lot of my previous ability.

My wife did taijiquan in China, as well as competed with her university in Beijing's wushu team (in the taijiquan division). She rolls her eyes when she sees demonstrations like that attributed to qi. She told me that homeless teenagers (hardly qi gong masters) would often do things like the spear trick in front of restaurants to make money.

The bowl trick is not that hard to figure out. I gave it a try, and with the right bowl, I think I can do it. The trick is you breath in and expand the stomach, put the bowl against your bare skin, then you tense the abomen. The somach pulls back, but as long as the rim of the bowl is sealed against your skin, no air can escape. This creates suction. No mystical energies involved.



Perhaps think of it a different way. If some strange mystical power exists, why has it only been found in the Far East (and ALL OVER it at that!)? The truth is that to be scientific about things, YOU must prove that mystical energies exist, that they are separate from already well known phenomenons, and before you can do that, you have to be able to define it.

Then go get your million dollars from the amazing Randi.

Charles,

first of all, as others said already, the fact that something is written on a book doesn't make it true. Unfortunately, there is no Middle Earth on globe although some book says that there is.

I am not saying that there is no such thing as ki. It is energy flow within your body and you can strengthen it and control it with careful training and effort. It is said that ki follows the mind and blood follows ki. So by looking at your hand, you can raise the temperature of it by a degree or so because you are just sending more blood there. Ki balance in the body is important for health and what acupuncture does is to balance ki flow in the body.

Just don't think that it is a mystical power that you can shoot out of your fist as a form of energy ball or make you leviate. It's not gonna happen.


On a seperate note, if someone is really training ki control, please be reminded that water goes up and fire goes down. If you have no idea what I just said, please do not bother. I have known at least a couple of people who went coo-coo with high level ki training accident.

Forgot to answer this

1. I'm pretty sure I can make the spear to go through. I just won't do it since I respect life.
2. I can smash my rib with an iron bar too, but for apparent reason, I'm not interested. Also, there are people who pierce their body and hang themselves from the ceiling for sexual pleasure. Not interested in that either.
3. suction cup effect. Also there are people who stick metal object to their naked body. I'd say that is more interesting.

I guess I am not following the concern here, though I am hearing a few different themes.

1.) Whether "Ki" exisits or does not exist is not the question. Apparently some people feel that to entertain the belief that Ki exists challenges their Christian faith. Not sure how this follows.

2.) If a person who follows the Christian faith elects to teach a Korean art but finds aspects of the Korean culture at odds with that firmly held belief system what does this say about teaching the Korean art? Does the Korean art cease to be an aspect of culture and become, instead, a matter of Physical Education?

3.) What about the matter of Ethics which must attend instruction in a martial art by virtue of its content and intent? Are the Ethics to founded in Christian beliefs? Confucian Beliefs? Buddhist Beliefs? Law? Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce