Anthony_Boyd----09/05/2004 8:41 AM----Post Number: 1


So, once people get tired of trashing the printed history of HDGD, and once our art has become more visible, there will be inevitable attacks on our techniques. I thought it might be interesting to see what sort of flaws we could find before that happens. That way, when it does start, we can have the advantage of preparing well-reasoned rebuttals well in advance. If you think of a rebuttal to someone's disparaging comments, please post it to the rebuttals thread.

So... What's wrong with Haidong Gumdo?

Grant----11/05/2004 12:34 PM----Post Number: 2


I think I put my preveious Iaido blurb. Should be put our *ideas* in this one, and only *rebuttles* in the other one?

Grant----11/05/2004 4:08 PM----Post Number: 3


Ahem. I meant to say... I think I put my Iaido blurb "in the wrong message area." ^_^

Anthony_Boyd----12/05/2004 4:23 AM----Post Number: 4


Yes, all the ideas for what is wrong with HDGD should go in this thread. All the counter-arguments to these ideas belong in the other thread. Right now we have "mixed messages" in just one thread... the other one.

Anthony_Boyd----12/05/2004 4:56 AM----Post Number: 5


One of the things I think people will cite as a weakness of our art is the fact that our forms seem to require an enemy or enemies who are always moving backwards.

Grant----12/05/2004 11:23 AM----Post Number: 6


Continuing/adding on to the previous question. Do you think we rely too much on the offensive?

Aaron----12/05/2004 11:44 AM----Post Number: 7


An offensive mindset is necessary in a battlefield of this sort. Just like in fighting multiple opponents, you can't take time out to 'duel' just one person, where more complicated strategies can be used. You have to keep moving, or you become a sitting duck.

To revisit the topic of 'bunkai'...bunkai are not secrets. Bunkai are basic applications following the exact motion of the form. Secrets are called 'kakushi waza'. For a very good explanation of all the Japanese terms (bunkai, oyo, henka, kakushi waza), check out Shihan-te by Darryl Max Craig, published by YMAA. I have to wonder if there are any 'secrets' to a battle field art. To put this in a modern perspective, would a commander of an army keep secret specific techniques of using a gun from his own army? That would be silly. What use is knowing the technique if you don't teach it to your army?

DaeSan_JinHae----12/05/2004 5:11 PM----Post Number: 8


This is only one persons interpretation of "bunkai," I don't believe there is a direct English translation and different authors are always arguing over it.

Grant----03/06/2004 2:45 AM----Post Number: 9


Continuing this thread, as it seems to have died. ^_^

I think Haidong Gumdo as a martial art is a bit lacking when it comes to material. We have 12 forms from zero to 1st Dan Black, add in basic the exercises and gyuck-gum 1-14, and when you add it all up there still isn't very much material to master to get your black belt. Hence, I think we're going to be heavily criticised for the speed at which we hand out 1st dan black. 18 months is just too fast. My initial perception is that of an attempt to build up the followers of the M.A. empire by accelerating people through the ranks; (this isn't a new idea....)

If you look at the trends set by some other martial arts --> kendo, gumdo, iaido, karate, aikido, jiu-jitsu, judo, hwarangdo, taesoodo, etc... there is usually at least 2 years of training required before black belt/sash. 2-4 years training is a reasonable average in my experience.

Now I've heard the argument that 'black belt is just a beginning, like graduating from kindergarten.' However when I look at the trends set by older, more firmly rooted martial arts, it still seems like people are being given symbols of competancy far too fast. I reached 2nd Dan black in Gumdo after 3 years of training, and I get a lot of flack for that from most martial artists that I meet. our black belt ranks just don't represent as many years of training, nor as much knowledge of technique as other martial arts do.

I think that the answer is to alter the curriculum such that more material is required to be learned at each level. (Gup and Dan curriculums both.)

See you in the Rebuttles section!


.

The only flaw I see is the World HDGD Federation is rushing instructors onto the mat. I've seen WAY too many "Video Session" masters. It's laughable to think thatthese guys are teaching classes and they've either been doing kumdo for 2-3 months, or they've learnt their forms and techniques from video. The Federation need to SLOW DOWN! You're rushing things too much! You want to put this art on the map, I understand this. But please don't do it by putting rent-a-masters in your dojang.

You want to know what I think, I think the testing is too easy and I think if someone really comprehends and masters the first 12 forms and 14 kyuck gums as well as all the basics than they have the material and knowledge they need to be a black belt. But I don’t see many people mastering or comprehending this information, I see more people just doing memorized motions then actually getting or learning anything from it. I see more people just moving through the ranks because they’ve memorized simple series of movements than because they have dedication, heart, applicable comprehension, or knowledge. I see few students that posses all of those qualities, and that is what frustrates me most. 12 forms and 14 one steps may not be a lot of things to memorize, but a black belt doesn’t symbolize memorization, it symbolized heart, spirit, confidence, applicable information, technique and the knowledge behind it and how to use and apply it, it shows that you are prepared to begin your real training and delving deeply into the realm of the art and much more.

12 forms and 14 ones steps isn’t a lot to memorize but it is a lot to master, learn, apply, know, be confident about and show your character and qualities while learning. I feel too many people are being handed belts because they’ve memorized a number of forms and paid their monthly dues. A black belt shouldn’t symbolize what you have memorized, it should symbolized who you are, what you understand and what you are willing to do to learn. I’ve come across a few BB’s that couldn’t teach a class or conduct warm-ups even after having their belt for some months. I think the day you become a dan that you should be able to conduct a class and know how to even if it isn’t needed of you. I don’t think the weakness in Haidong Gumdo lies in the material, I think it lies in the way individuals are assessed. I don’t think tests are demanding enough and I’m not talking physically, I’m talking informatively. Those being tested should have to know more than a memorized form and have fair endurance. I think a good master knows when a student is ready advance in rank and when he has attained the level of understanding and mastery of his material that he is prepared to take the next step to the next rank. And I think we have a lot of good masters in HDGD, but it feels like they are pushing or being pushed too hard and fast to get people into the art and get the art established. And by this I think we are building a week base of people that know patterns of motions but lack everything else that goes with a martial art.

I think that with good attendance(more than once a week or every 2 weeks) that 18 months to black belt can be very reasonable for most students if they are taught well and strive to learn for themselves. I feel like a responsible and mature individual who has enthusiasm for the art and a drive to excel in it on many levels can make a good solid black belt in 18 months, and at the same time some people should advance at 1 rank per 6 months as they attain what they must from their level of material. I think the guidelines for testing are seen as rules and everyone gets a new belt ever 2-3 months no matter what they know or what kind of character they have, that is the problem, some students are honestly ready to advance in rank after a month an a half, some honestly need 4-6 months. It all depends on the individual and their drive and what they want to get out of haidong gumdo, as well as their reasons for being there and what they think hdgd is. Some people are advanced to slowly but more are too quickly and not enough of them are learning what they need to, aside from some other small bugs I think that is the main problem of our art at this point in time.

*high five's pyro*

Damn straight!

Thanks for the honest post. A few comments and questions inline below:



What knowledge do they need to be a black belt? Also, what do you mean by "masters the [curriculum]". What does curriculum mastery mean to you?

I ask these questions because from style to style and teacher to teacher, I have rarely found consistency in the meaning of a black belt.

Would it be fair then to say that you feel all people should be judged in exactly the same way when testing for rank?

And to master something means something much more to me than can be accomplished in the 1.5 - 2 years or so that it seems to take in hdgd for an il dan. Nearly 20 years after learning basic punching techniques, I still get new insights into them as my experience and knowledge base changes and grows.



A huge amount of training requires lots of memorized motions and practice before things start to make sense. It is overall not an unreasonable thing to test. And testing someone's comprehension is quite an undertaking...decades and decades and decades of public schooling have failed to turn up a reasonable method to do that.



How can you reasonably test for that? Particularly dedication and heart? How do you discern memorization from knowledge?



A minute ago, at black belt, hadn't you mastered everything you had been taught in form and application? In that case, how can you say that your real training is about to begin? What depths of a martial art are there that aren't contained in their form and use?



Unfortunately, this is a biproduct of two things:
1. The need for the instructor to pay the bills
2. The desire of the hdgd institution to expand quickly

My experience here with hdgd differs vastly from yours. You are not alone by any means though, it has been brought up in one way or another several times on this site. Ron's class had a grand total of ZERO people in it who were just paying to show up and look cool and getting passed by because their bills were paid. In fact, one would had to have at least medium-heavy massochistic tendencies to even make it through a class, much less think its a good idea to just pay the bill and show up. And it follows that niether of the two above conditions I laid out were true in his class. He didn't depend on class money to live, and was not being pushed by anyone to spread at all.

My opinion: ban commercial schools. I'm gonna get flamed for that one!



I agree with this point, and I think it is a far better means of student assessment than board testing when possible. It is not without its problems though. One is that it requires that the teacher be VERY familiar with every single student in the school. In a large school, this is far from feasable. A second is that a teacher to some extent or another makes some kind of an emotional investment in their students. Sometimes this can ruin the judgement of the teacher as they have an inherent conflict of interest. The third is that it is hard to get several people in a room to agree on anything, much less on something as subjective as what a rank means. So even still, there are going to be people with ranks that others don't agree with.

In all martial arts, I am of the opinion that the belt system is useless for anything other than having a carrot at the end of a stick and shall we say 'ego' measuring. Ban it! OK, I am definately being a little extreme here, but I find the belt system to be perhaps the most exploited aspect of martial arts, and have become biased against it.

*Now here we have the makings of a good conversation*





I see now that i have misused the term "Master", I do appologize for that careless generalization because i did not intend to send that particular message at all. My mistake. Replace 'master' with 'well versed', 'very proficient', 'thoroughly known' and other similar meanings and perhaps my message will be a little clearer.

I believe that blackbelt symbolizes dedication, heart, confidence, spirit and willingness/desire to learn. I believe that it symbolizes these things and does it through intense training, building character, hard work, dicipline, respect and dertermination, all of wich when combined should translate into skill and knolgedge of forms, material and techniques, and good character. Many look at from the opposite point of view that you create everything through skill, knoledge and character but I believe that these things are the product of intense training, building character, hard work, dicipline, respect and dertermination. And I feel that these are more important than the other 3, that through all of these things that the other 3 will come, and thought the 3 are the goal it is the rest that is both the means and the reward.

Every Master has their own definition of what it means to be a Blackbelt and that is their right because it is something that is different to every person, the only problem is when one looses sight of the things that are truely important and begins to think Martial Arts are only memorized patterns.

I also feel that everyone should not be tested the same exact way, that each person is not competeing against others but againt themself and thus instead of winning over others they win over themselves and acheive a higher reward. Each test must be slightly different as each person and the stuff that makes them is slightly different. I feel that for black belt testing that ever Teacher should know their student well enough to know what that student needs and overcomes. It is a very subjective process, and i feel it is even more nessesary than standard testing, though i feel the standard testing is still important and should still play a considerable role in testing and promotions, i believe that it should not be solely based around that.




One has to know the students, or get to know them through the testing process enough to pick up on such things. Dedication can be seen in how one handles making a known mistake, and heart can be seen in ones straight cuts... Someone who is experienced in the art can surely gain some a measure of a student by watching them for a period of time, not particularly if the student does well or not but how the student does in general. It can't be tested on a paper and it isn't cut and dry, it is subjective, though a good instructor can tell fairly accuractly the stuff a student is made of. One way to discern knowledge from memorization is to ask someone to teach a technique to someone else, and watch is they show them how to do the technique or if they show how to do it and why it's done and how its done and the intriquicies behind it. There is a big difference between demonstrate and explain.




I am also not a huge fan of the belt system but in anything but an absolute ideal setting it is needed and needed well in order to structure things, hold interest, keep things fresh, change of pace and many other things. In a perfect scenario things would work very well if not better without the belt system but we do not live in a perfect world and thus it is needed, and sometimes is well used to teach and represent things that are important to learn and understand, while at the same time it is sometimes horribly manipulated and missused to be nothing more than a scam to charge people more money for things. I say that even with all the bad things the belt system brings that it is still needed and though on paper it can be done away with, it just doesn't work that well in real life. I can only hope that people strive to well use it and not abuse it.

I may get crucified for this, but I enjoy the Japanese Iaido system for grading, especially the one in Tateyama Dojo, Ottawa, ON. The instructor is Dave Green. There is a shodan testing once a year in December and another in May during seminars. They have no belt system. Everyone is required to wear hakama and kimono with an obi. I couldn't care less about the skirt and top, but I think we should convert and use obi when we reach ildan in kumdo. The belts we have are NO GOOD for holding a sword. Koreans also wore something similar to an obi in ye' olden days, so I don't see why they haven't incorporated it. I couldn't care less about seeing my name on my belt. I'd rather have a functional belt instead of a pretty black one. Just some food for thought.