I have been researching Korean martial arts history, and having continued trouble sorting facts from fiction. Please help!

I have found references to the hwarang in several historical sources (including direct mention in the MDTJ), but I have found no references to the samurang in any sources not associated (pro or con) with the official history of HDGD. Has anyone been able to find any details about the samurang, outside our immediate HDGD community?

This is a touchy subject.

It's been said more than once that samurang is a modern creation, since the word itself was copywritten as a World Haidong Gumdo Federation trademark ( Click HERE for proof.) It can be argued that this was done so no other arts use the word, to make it more Haidong Gumdo-ish.

Another odd thing: Haidong Gumdo is also a registered trademark, held only by the WHDGDF. I don't think this takes away from our beloved art at all. If anything, know these things adds to the experience, and our own faith in our art. Although now registered as Haidong Gumdo ( Korean ? Daehan Haedong Geomdo ), it's also very likely that our art went under another name, or even none at all. Keep in mind, Tae Kwon Do was never called by that name until the late 1950's (Taekkyeon, pre 50's). It's safe to assume that Haidong Gumdo was either never talked about under that name, or it was just not talked about at all. Either way, names and trademarks shouldn't get in the way of our/your training. WHDGDF openly advertises that they trademarked these words, so I wouldn't worry about them attempting world domination.

I suppose I went a little off-topic, so let me help you with a educated guess at the origins of samurang:

On Bullshido.COM, the 'net's most rutheless martial arts forum when it comes to sniffing out false claims and fraudulent teachers, pointed out that linguistics might have played a very big part in the birth/rebirth of the word samurang.

"I have no historical knowledge to add. But I do think I can add something of interest. Those three characters: ???, do have a striking connection to what you're saying. In Mandarin it's Shi-wu-lang, and in Cantonese, which seems to have a closer resemblence to Korean and Japanese, it's Si-moh-long. Ofcourse, you got the stereotype of the Japanese and to a lesser extent the Koreans turning all the L's in the beginning of the syllable to R's, and I've seen more than a few examples of Chinese words that start with an L sound being nearly identical in Korean but starting with an R sound (especially with Cantonese). I can't think of any right now, but I know they're there.

And the characters themselves are ?: agent/soldier/warrior ?: warfare ?:man. Is samurai usually written in Japanese with kanji or hiragana? If it's kanji, then I can imagine a Korean guy just putting it out of his butt or how the phonetics would be close and not really have the theory be true. But if it's written in hiragana or even katagana I personally would lean to it not being a coincidence and that the Japanese really did adopt the whole thing.".

This is all there research, besides Wikipedia.COM, I have on the matter. Since this is a touchy subject, so if anyone thinks I'm overstepping my boundries, please PM me. Thanks, and I hope this helps.

Obtaining copyright for terms is standard practice in Korea as it is in other countries. While the "cool" internet view always seems to default to the idea that this must be for monetary reasons, a moment's thought can clear things up. If you cannot control the use of something as basic as the name of your system, how can you ever hope to maintain a standard, or make quality assurances?

During the formative years of the modern Korean economy imitation, knock-offs, and piracy were commonplace. While there have been signifcant strides to clean that up the need for protection is still real.

When I moved to my present location in Seoul, I found a "HDGD" school near my workplace. I went in and discovered that this group didn't teach SSGB#12 until third dan. Was there any extra or new material in their curriculum? No. Were the students well-taught? No. When they learned my rank [at that time I was 2nd dan] they couldn't get me out of the building fast enough. Am I glad that they had to stop using the name? Absolutely.

In your historical searches, remember that much of Korea's written history was systematically destroyed by the occupation forces of colonial Japan. This can make it impossible to separate oral tradition, speculation, memory, and fabrication. I think this is why the happiest martial artists are those who focus on improving their physical mastery of skills.

Here is an exchange about samurang which appeared on my stormpages site a few years ago. I would credit the author, but as he used a nickname [Nanshu] I cannot. As you read it, note that the author was mostly concerned with the assertion made that samurang is the root of the Japanese word 'samurai' and not with the etymology of the words we discuss. While the author is operating with some misconceptions about the art and the region, the information is sound.
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To clear up some issues that "Nanshu" raised, it should be noted that the regime which set itself up in what is now North Korea systematically rooted out organizations not directly sponsored by the government. Groups like martial arts schools have heirarchical structures with leaders and that was not tolerated. They had much more time to root out these groups than the Japanese and an even more ruthless approach.

Modern martial arts practice was reintroduced to the North by South Koreans [notably Choi Hong Hi of ITF Taekwondo fame]. Using the lack of an art in the North as proof that something was invented whole cloth in the present is not conclusive.

People like to separate countries and time periods as though they exist in isolation. It needs to be considered that Kokuryo, Paekchae, Kaia, and Shilla had a lot of interaction with each other. Although Shilla's language group and reverence for China ended up being dominant on the Korean peninsula, how likely is it that none of these countries were influenced by their neighbors? We know that proto-Japanese culture, particularly that of the rising elite, was influenced heavily by Kaia and Paekche. As history is a process involving social evolution as well as events, the spread of concepts can span tremendous distances of both space and time. Issues of racism and nationalism aside, how could China, Korea, and Japan not have contributed to each other's development?

Things do not need to be copied whole-cloth to be related. There are plenty of examples in history where an ethos - in whole or in part - inspired the rise of a new group or ideal.

As for the transmission of material through the ages to modern Korea, this is a tougher issue as it involves a lot of technological changes in weapon design and configuration, tactical advancements, ideological changes, and ultimately near-obsolescence of the whole artform. However, people pass things on. We all love swords, and we are not the first to do so.

Wow!

Thank you for taking the time to address my question in such detail. I know you have other things to do with your time......I just want to say that I truly appreciate the effort you take to make such information available.

As far as copyrights not necessarily indicating that a concept is new....I whole-heartedly agree. I have seen similar issues with copyrights on particular translations of the Bible (which certainly can be traced to greater antiquity, since OT manuscripts still exist that date to the third century or so BC). The copyrights keep charlatans from altering key verses and then claiming to have done their own 'translations', possibly inventing whole new doctrines out of corruptions from the originals. In the Biblical case, though, the copyright is on a particular work of translation, and not on the manuscripts themselves.

I am concerned that, as a community, we seem to be very good at shooting ourselves in our own collective foot. The most common accusation from our detractors is that our art is a recent invention. What a pity that our own intra-familial squabbles necessitate the copyrighting of our basic terms! When such copyrights are matters of public record, I think it gives more ammunition to our detractors that our art 'must' be a recent invention.

I think what we're trying to say is... believe whatever you want to believe. We'll never know for sure.

Anyway, less chat, more mat. (Of course, in my case, it's more like less chat, more where ever you can find an open place to train.)

If someone says that a copyright makes something modern, they are silly and should be given no second thought.

Look at what happened with the word Shaolin...

But, even if it is modern, so what?

As to samurang...it falls under the same category as the history...simply put, don't take it too seriously.

How the heck do we know what words were used 2300 years ago? Heh, I'll just have to hop into my time-machine.

I've asked a few of my friends, and every last one of them has never heard of ??? (samurang). Most thought I meant ?? (musa), which is the most popular way of describing a fighter/warrior. Why did my friends roll their eyes at me when I asked them if samurai really was derived from samurang. Is it really that unlikely? I'd like to say it isn't, and I'd rather have them prove me right.

Whether or not samurang really was a word commonly used a couple thousand years ago is pretty hard to say. However, I think it's safe to say that the orgins of the word samurai were not found in samurang. Besides, "samurai" wasn't even widely used until shortly before Sekigahara. I believe it was yamabushi, but I could be wrong.

hmm...one question I had about term Samurai is that the chinese character for that word is ? meaning a servant. It is pronounced 'shi' in Chinese and 'si' in Korean. Why is it pronounced samurai in Japan? I'm guessing that such pronounciation as ssaul abi was used to refer armed servants (or body guards) for nobles. Then again, I can't make much sense out of old Korean texts when I read one, so who knows what was the original Korean term refering warriors.

I guess we'll never know. Meh, we're calling 'em samurang now, so does it really matter?

Sorry, Folks, but this is the same old revisionist garbage that people have been using for years. My personal concern is why more of these folks who fabriacte this stuff don't sit down with some solid historical writing and learn about the REAL Korean history. I think folks would be very surprised to learn about the real Korean traditions and would not need to make things like this up. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

My guess it is because Japanese attached native Japanese words to their Kanji, and in many cases, end up having several absolutely unrelated sounding pronunciations for the same character (ie a native one, and a sino-Japanese one).

Just a small point but one that people might want to consider in this discussion.

The services of the Samurai grew out of a need for outlying Japanese lords, far removed from the support and intervention of the government in the capital. Most individuals of the capital experienced being "sent" to the boonies and away from the court as a kind of punishment. Therefore, though the outlying lords were still responsible for gathering revenues, they were also on their own (as it were) for things like settling disputes and dealing with outlaws. The samurai were essentially folks who had shown that they knew how to handle themselves in a fight and were the ones sent to collect revenues and deal with unpleasantness that could be found on most fiefs. Effectively they were "muscle" for the Lord imposing his will on his land. The more romantic notions of "Bushido" are more a product of 18th and 19th century romanticism and Japanese nationalism than what is actually considered historically accurate.

When the Korean speaks of "service" the Confucian and Buddhist models suggest that service directed at the Hwa of the community. When the Japanese speaks of "service" it has its roots in making sure everybody was toe-ing the Lords' line. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Nice post Bruce. Appreciated.

I read Yamamoto Tsunemoto's Hagakure again, a few weeks ago, and I couldn't help rolling me eyes everyfive or six pages. His commentary on the 47 ronin made me laugh.

Dear Charles:

Sad, but true. Liked your comment about the 47 Holy Warriors. These guys epitomized an ideal, true enough, but look what the reactionary movements of the Meije Restoration did to them. Have you ever read Nitobe's "BUSHIDO- Soul of the Samurai"? Thing is, though, people would rather eat that stuff up than accept the reality of History. Its kind of like the American Civil War. Once you get past all that romantic garbage about freeing the slaves you find out that it was a simple matter of whether the States were going to control commerce or if the central governement was in charge and who was going to get the revenues.

Same goes for Korean martial traditions. people are always looking for ways to gussy-up the facts, like more window-dressing is going to somehow validate reality to a greater extent. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Let's hear about the reality then.