Anyone care to comment on the latest entry changes for 'haidong gumdo' in Wikipedia? It is much more 'HDGD-Friendly' than the previous entries. Based on previous discussions on this forum, and the inclusion of a section comparing 'shimgum' to 'duende', I think someone on this forum gave some good input into the write-up. Whoever made the changes: good job!

Can anyone comment further on the relation between the roots of haidong gumdo and gicheon? I found a gicheon website describing the basic poses/stances, and they are identical to the basic stances in hdgd, even to the incluson of the names, in most cases. (See stances at http://www24.brinkster.com/thefringe/gicheon/gc2.htm ) Also, my understanding of simgeomdo is that it was an entirely made-up, recent creation (a Buddhist monk 'received enlightenment' and developed the forms after meditating on a mountain - not that I'm skeptical, mind you ).

Anyway, I am very much interested in understanding the real history of our art. If someone on this forum wrote/provided input for the Wikipedia article, I would be very grateful if you could add (or pm) information on the sources for stating that Na and Kim trained in gicheon and simgeomdo before starting hdgd. Are the actual court records available?

Thanks! And FYI, since the nature of Wikipedia is to change every so often (and the article is marked to be merged with 'kumdo'), I've pasted a copy of the current article under discussion (as it stands as of June 19, 2005):

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Wikipedia article a/o 6/19/2005: see 'haidong gumdo'
Haidong Gumdo, also spelled Haedong Kumdo (Hanja ????/Hangul ????), is a name coined around 1982 and used for several Korean martial art organizations that use swords. Spelling varies between certain organizations. Most notable are Haidong Gumdo by the original organization (Daehan Haidong Gumdo Federation) under Kim Jeong-Ho, and Haedong Kumdo by the largest offshoot (Hanguk Haedong Gumdo Federation) under Na Han-Il.

A series of legal actions between the primary Haidong Gumdo organizations has exposed the real history of Haidong Gumdo. These organizations claim that Haidong Gumdo is rooted in the martial traditions of a group called Samurang from Goguryeo, which they claim were elite warriors originally trained by a master called Seolbong. However, written sources for Samurang, Seolbong and other terms have not been shared, and they do not try to explain what happened to the Samurang after Goguryeo. The trials concluded that these stories were fabrications, while reaffirming the legitimate skill and training history of the leaders.

The World Haidong Gumdo Federation, claims that Kim Jeong-Ho, president of the Daehan Haidong Gumdo Federation, learned Haidong Gumdo from a master called Jangbaeksan (meaning Mount Baekdu) at Kwanak Mountain. The trials concluded that Haidong Gumdo was created by Kim Jeong-Ho and Na Hanil, both of whom learned Gicheonmun from Bak Daeyang and Simgeomdo from Kim Changsik and that the story of Jangbaeksan was a metaphor for this. The pair worked together under the name of the more widely known of their two arts, Simgeomdo. Around 1984 they changed the name of their martial art from Simgeomdo to Haidong Gumdo. Haidong Gumdo remained a relatively minor art until 1989 when Na Hanil played the leading character of a Korean TV drama. It considerably helped to promote Haidong Gumdo, but the rapid growth of the organization led to internal strife.

While Haedong Kumdo is not immune from the factionous strife that characterizes much of the Korean martial arts, dedicated practitioners engage in the practice of kibun (basics), pumsae (forms), yaksuk daeryun (step sparring), sparring hada (free sparring), chingum kyukgum (sparring with live blades), kigong (energy building exercises) and begi (cutting practice). Basic practice is with the mokgum (wooden sword).

Sparring practice begins with chukdo (bamboo sword) and progresses to mokgum and chingum. Pumsae within Haedong Kumdo were derived from the mechanics of Gicheon, and various sword patterns found within the Muye Dobo T'ongji (Illustrated Manual of Martial Arts), a text which the Koreans obtained from the Chinese in the early 18th Century. Paldo/Ch'akgum forms (drawing/sheathing the sword) were inspired by Japanese iaido.

While indigenous Korean sword forms are contained in the Bonkuk Kumbup (Korean sword method), other kumbup are taught within Haedong Kumdo curricula, including Ssangsu Kumbup (method of using the double handed sword), Shimsang Kumbup (method of using strategy and tactics with the sword), Yedo Kumbup (method of the heart of swordsmanship), Chedok Kumbup (Admiral's sword method), Jangbaek Kumbup (the Jangbaek method), Wae Kumbup (Japanese method), Wuisu Kumbup (method of using the sword with one hand) and Ssang Kumbup (The method of using two swords).

Korean swordsmanship may be generally characterized as exchanging multiple strikes of the sword for one strike of the sword. The one strike concept characterizes the Japanese method. The Japanese ideal of "one strike, one kill" is prevalent in Japanese kendo (kumdo), even today. The merits and limitations of each of the philosophies may be debated. In international competition, the Japanese tend to excell in sport kumdo (kendo) and the Koreans excell in begi (cutting).

The essence of Haedong Kumdo is in "shimgum," a concept similar to the that of the Spanish "duende", as coined by the Spanish poet, Federico Garcia Lorca. Shimgum is the unification of the mind, body and spirit expressing itself through the use of the sword. It implies a technical mastery of the sword but transcends technical limitations. One can be "technically perfect" but still not achieve shimgum. Shimgum is what makes Haedong Kumdo not only a martial science but also a martial art.

Despite the imperfect nature of the organizations which promote and the individuals who practice Haedong Kumdo, the art is gaining a wide and dedicated following throughout the world.

Everything you posted is entirely consistent with what I have found and been led to believe about the origins of HDGD. It does not make it bad or awful. It simply reflects the crying need for Koreans to reassert their own culture rather than continue to utilize material foisted on them by other cultures.

One comment I am not so sure that I agree with was the bit about the Japanese having "excelled in sports. The Japanese Ken-jutsu community is still strong and dynamic if somewhat divided, but the desire to maintain the integrity of their arts is a decent model for others to follow.

personally I would like to see a bit more emphasis on the MYTBTJ and less of this importing Japanese traditions such as Iaido and its pre-cursor art, Batto-jutsu. Can't for the life of me understand why the Korean are so reluctant to revel in their own material. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

The iaido-part is not like it reads in the post. Having a set of drawing and sheathing exercises at all is the result of knowing the Japanese do it. The techniques were not copied and imported.

Ann, the wikipedia post itself states that the training records for Masters Kim and Na were verified. Both men are listed in the late Kim Chang-sik's book "The Art of Zen Sword" and instructors, and the Gicheon people love to mention that our President Kim was one of theirs when they meet a Haidong Gumdo-in.

The source for Gicheon is a mystery to me at this time. Due to its dificulty and lack of many rank trappings, it seems to my eyes that it has been kept pretty free of modern influences.

Ann, thank you for posting the article. I didn't get a chance to read the previous entry but the current version was very interesting. I've read the history of HDGD on the WHDGD website and found it very informative with regards to the origins of our art but have always been curious about recent events.

If you find out anymore please pass it along. I for one am very interested in reading some of the source material.

....now where'd I put that korean-to-english dictionary.....

Brad

".....The iaido-part is not like it reads in the post. Having a set of drawing and sheathing exercises at all is the result of knowing the Japanese do it. The techniques were not copied and imported....."

Eh???

Not sure I follow what you just said. Little Help?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

I agree. There seems to be no similarity at all between the p'aldo/chakgum forms and iaido, other than the simple fact that both involve taking out and putting away swords.

Thanks, Anthony! I will try to pick up a copy of the book you mentioned. I have not been able to find much (hardly anything) about gicheon mu either.

BTW: I share this only for whatever it may be worth and draw no conclusions about it.

Sometime in May before I went to the Hapkiyusool Intensive in Australia I got an e-mail from a person who is promoting the GICHEON system, especially in Europe. He was inquiring as to where I got the information about HDGD being a merger between SHIMKUMDO and GICHEON. Unfortunately, the Internet source I had used had been taken down so I was unable to give him the correct citation. Still, I find myself wondering if the GICHEON people (or maybe only this individual) take exception to being connected with HDGD. If anyone has any insights either inside or outside of Korea? I, for one, would be interested.

Also--- is there a resource for the summary of the investigation made in the civil action that I could use (archive)? Do the Korean courst make such things available? Have any of the KMA resources picked this up and published it? Anyone?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

MARS among others used it, in mostly derogatory ways. I actually came across it via a Gicheon instructor who was trying to dissuade me from practicing HDGD in favour of Gicheon. Although I am quite fond of gicheon, there is nothing in it which can satisfy a swordsman nearly so much as HDGD, nor is it as organized or "joint-friendly".


The founder of Gicheon seems to have no issues with HDGD, but this doesn' t always extend to his leading students. Both Pak DaeYang of Gicheon and Kim Chang-Sik of Simgeomdo acknowledged instructing and granting the right to teach to President Kim, but also acknowledged that HDGD was not their curriculum.

An important part of the history of HDGD is that it states, President Kim Jeong Ho organized the curriculum for modern students. Most of what we learn is presented to us in an incredibily organized fashion - each step neatly building on the last, each revelation leading to the next. It's truly a wonder.