Upperclassman Brian----25/11/2003 12:16 AM----Post Number: 1

Just some thoughts. I'm not really decided on this, but it's something that I've had going for a while now.

I used to be a cross country runner until my physique changed toward more of a sprinter type. Well, I pretty much grew to loathe running. They'd tell me that if you change one letter of "Fun" that it was "Run", at which point I would remind them, "Then it isn't fun anymore."

While chatting with Anthony, he said that endurance was a big part of his current training and that they do something insane like "5 reps of ssgb, 3 reps of ygb, and 3 reps of bggb". Jeez, but it rekindled this thought of mine: What benefit would jogging for 20 minutes have over doing constant forms, sparring or freestyle for 20 minutes? If there isn't, then are treadmills and tracks simply for the uncreative (barring for running event training)?

Now I should probably clear up that I actually do like running, but in shorter spurts, none of this 10k stuff. I, in fact, often jog to and from places on campus simply cause it's not too hard, sort of fun and takes less time (or perhaps it'll wake me up). But I like to limit it to no more than 800m (half mile), meaning it's more of a sprint. I do know, from having so many long distance runner friends, that running for more than 30 minutes daily is supposed to have adverse effects to your system, because of the constant shock your bones and spine are having to adsorb.

So, perhaps doing forms for 30+ minutes is better for you than running for 30+ minutes. Who knows?

Does anyone else have an opinion?

Aaron----25/11/2003 7:33 AM----Post Number: 2


Jogging is a different type of exercise than doing forms.

Jogging falls under aerobic exercise. You do a repetitive motion at a predictable speed. The body is most efficient at this type of exersize.

Forms practice, sparring, etc fall under anaerobic exersize. This type of exersize is when you move erratically and at varying speeds. The body has a harder time to keep up with the changes and it results in a tougher workout. You end up using a lot more muscles in the body, and particularly the trunk muscles when you spar or do forms than just jogging. You will tire much quicker.

I prefer to do some of both. Pre-leg injury, when I would work out alone, I would start by running for 10 to 15 minutes, then going through my forms. I feel that if you do only the aerobic exersize, you tire before you can train the cardiovascular system enough, but if you only train the cardiovascular, when you exert lots of muscles, you aren't used to it and wear too quickly.

Some mix is probably the best, in a schedule you can be happy with.

Aaron----25/11/2003 7:36 AM----Post Number: 3


One other note to add. You can jog anaerobically by mixing in slow to medium paced periods of even running with sprints.

Still I think training what you practice is still very important to include (ie doing forms as exersize!).

Rogue 12----25/11/2003 12:03 PM----Post Number: 4


Prior to starting HDGD I was maintaining an exercise routine to keep in shape. I had worked out to lose over 40 pounds and I intended to keep it off. When I was living at home I would walk on the treadmill (4.6 MPH at a 15 degree incline) for anywhere from 45 minutes to 1.5 hours. I know some of you are thinking that this must have been the height of boredom, but when you have a TV in front of you, it provides a major distraction.

Now that I have moved out (and can't afford a treadmill yet) I have been running on the street. I have found that to get the same sustained cardiovascular workout I have to run to get the heart rate going. One of the things I realized after doing the treadmill for so long was that my heartrate during normal walking was very low and during moderate exertion, the heartrate stayed low. In order to return to a cardio workout, I was enticed to run.

These days I keep up with my running (as often as I can) and lift weights (to maintain muscle proportion and avoid any Popeye syndrome or fiddler crab chest muscles!). I have found that the running has improved my endurance, especially in terms of HDGD workouts. I still work up a sweat in doing forms (and granted, I only know SSGB 1 - 2) but I don't get as worn out.

Upperclassman Brian----25/11/2003 11:53 PM----Post Number: 5

Well, I haven't gotten that definition for the two. What I've been told is that aerobic workouts are long ones (jogging, swimming, cycling, etc.) and anaerobic workouts are like sprinting and weight training. Mainly, that it all has to do with intensity vs. duration, hence the jogging vs.sprinting.. Maybe there is something to this. Weightlifters I know have talked about getting aerobic workouts from their weight training if they do it right (i.e.constantly).

Can one supposedly do forms in an aerobic fashion as well as an anaerobic fashion? Jog a form rather than sprinting it perhaps? Or if you do forms for long enough, will it have an anaerobic effect regardless? Or do I not know what I'm talking about?

Aaron----26/11/2003 7:40 AM----Post Number: 6


Well, I will be the first to admit that I am speaking from my understanding of the terms, and not from a scientifically stated definition..

From here:
http://www.uihealthcare.com/topics/exercisefitness/exer3098.html

paraphrasing:
anaerobic means without air. hard/high intensity for short bursts. examples: sprinting, weight lifting
aerobic - lower in intensity longer in duration.
For physical fitness, both are necessary

my comments:
I still think forms practice in mainly anaerobic. There may be some aerobic benefit from it, but I still think high intensity in short bursts describes the exercise better than low intensity for a long period of time.

Looking at it from a slightly different prespective, you can get very much out of breath by just lifting something that is very heavy for you. The sudden, heavy exertion makes your muscles need to suck up oxygen, but there isn't enough, and this triggers your breath to become heavier. That doesn't necessarily give you any aerobic benefit, but it does wind you enough that you have to rest before you can do it more. So in my view, forms practice will tire you long before you find your aerobic limit and is thus anaerobic exercise.

In aerobic exersize, each motion uses comparatively little oxygen, so the lungs are able to keep up. Your breath and pulse rate slowly increase, and eventually find a homeostasis which is possible to maintain for quite some time. This gives the lungs and cardiovascular system an extended period of heightened use. Theoretically, the muscles then are getting enough oxygen, and it thus aerobic exersize.

Still, I do leave room for the chance that I don't quite get it, so if what I am saying doesn't make sense, perhaps I am off base.

Probably you could come up with some aerobic exercises while maintaining valid sword practice, then share with the group. Anything to get out of running works for me!

Upperclassman Brian----26/11/2003 8:49 AM----Post Number: 7

Yeah, I'm definitely pretty tired after enough forms, but back to what Anthony's class does, which sparked my thinking. If you're doing "5 reps of ssgb, 3 reps of ygb, and 3 reps of bggb" it's got to have aerobic effect, because I can't even think how long that would take (going to have to ask him about it). But then again, as you say, forms require alot more raw strength than jogging. Yet, I've never seen any weightlifters breath as hard as a person who went through all the ssgp just once, let along 5 times.

So, yeah, your definitions make sense to be, but the more I think about it, I wonder how much crossover there can be.

Anthony_Boyd----26/11/2003 9:18 AM----Post Number: 8


One thing that caught our attention when we reinstated this multiple repetition of forms method was the fatigue. When I was mid-way through learning the curriculun for second dan I had to do my forms this way all the time. 5 reps each of SSGB, Shimsang, and the yedo forms I knew. I was training alone at 7 am with a 1.5 hour commute to Uijongbu, a 2 hour class, and then a 1.5 hour commute back for work in those days. All I felt was fatigue and little else. I learned a lot about pain, frustration, and the slowness of time and very little about gumbub. This method was abandoned when my class was expanded to include other students.

These days, the situation is much better. I am fitter. I understand my limitations much better, I think I have gained a better grasp of the power curve in our forms, and I am currently quite motivated to build my endurance. All of that helps work on a regimen like this one.

The very first day we did it, I started to get worried at the end of the third repetition of SSGB #2. We had been told to commit to full power, speed and quality for the first rep and then shift focus more toward quality without sacrificing speed for each successive repetition of each form. By the end of that third rep of the second form I was sucking wind and seriously considering where to put a rest break... I was leaning toward SSBG #6 as a good mid-point. I caught Clare's eye, she's more aerobically fit than I am, and I saw that she was suffering too so that was a clincher. Break at #6.
Under orders to not slack off in the pace, I kept us moving with as minimal a pause as possible between reps. I did my best to do my forms a little bit faster than my classmates to provide a bit of competition or challenge. By the time we got to #6 I was feeling really good. My mood had lifted from good to great, I was breathing lightly, I was sweating less, I was generating more power in each cut, my joints felt good and I was getting a new sense of the rhythm in each form. I gave the class a once-over and everyone except the newbie was smiling and relaxed. Someone called out "#7!" and I nodded and kept going.

It was greast fun and my first experience with the "second wind." It may also have been my first 'runner's high.' Whatever the case, I found the whole process useful and have made it a regular part of practice.

The problem is that it takes a lot of time and some forms, like #12 prove to be a bit unweildy when done en masse by practitioners at varied skill levels. Our newbie has just learned it and panicked at the first mass run down the dojang a-whirling and a-cutting.