Anthony_Boyd----19/04/2000 10:09 AM----Post Number: 1


I am having dreams these days of stern Korean men yelling "Ballee!" They have replaced the dreams I used to have of the same men yelling "Tashee!" I'm not certain that this is an improvement.
I'm not a slouch when it comes to speed and when the stars are right I can push for speed and keep some kind of form. Still, in no way do I consider my speed to be anywhere near enough for even the most basic set up in yedo gum-pup.
How can you get fast enough?
Is there a time when instructors will say, "Yes, that's a good speed."

Ron----28/04/2000 10:12 PM----Post Number: 2

Speed isn't nearly as important as timing. (I believe that Musashi comments on this in Go Rin No Sho.) Which, of course, isn't to say that it isn't important. There is a comment, written by a Ming observer during the Imjin War, which states that when observing the samurai in action, " ' [the samurai] brandished a 5-foot blade with such rapidity that nothing could be seen except a white sheen of metal, the soldier himself being invisible.'" (Secrets of the Samurai, O. Ratti and A. Westbrook) But the Holy Trinity of any combative engagement is Rhythm, Distance and Timing.

Anthony_Boyd----18/05/2000 6:46 PM----Post Number: 3

Has anyone had direct experience with the correlation between strength gain and the development of speed?

Todd "Katz"----07/06/2000 5:03 PM----Post Number: 4

Strength has never been a problem for me in my training (in fact my strength has been a bit of a hinderance in some ways according to my Kwang-jang-nim) but to improve speed I started to always do basic warm-ups with a heavy iron sword (My guess but I beleive it is about 5kgs) after doing warm ups with that both my Mok Gum and Jin Gum seem to be weightless and my speed of striking goes up. (Sort of the same principle as a baseball batter warming up with several bats to improve their bat speed). Other than constant repetition I haven't found a way to improve the speed of my foot work.

Whe I was training for my first Dan I used the same heavy sword to practice the Shim-sang. After doing the Shim-sang 3 or 4 times that way, taking a mok-gum feels like you are using nothing in your hands and your strokes become a) faster and b) larger.

I recomend it.

Ron----10/06/2000 8:58 PM----Post Number: 5

I highly recommend the writings of Richie Barathy on this subject. Barathy co-authored a book, The Body You Want, with Mark Gastineau (Yes, the football player.) which dealt with Barathy's mind/body training. If you are unfamiliar with Barathy and his accomplishments, you can find a well written obituary of this genius in March '97 Black Belt. I saw Barathy perform a couple of times, and he was certainly inspiring. His training methods were covered, in brief, in the book with Gastineau. I acquired a copy of the text through Amazon.com's search for out-of-print books. It took a few months, but it was well worth the wait. In the mean time, I would recommend working with light weights and many repetitions (Now doesn't that sound familiar!), rather than any heavy weights, at all. Although my mind and body are still trying to come together with the sword, I've never been accused of being slow with empty hand. In fact, just the opposite, (Toot! Toot!) And I find that Barathy's methods, what my feeble brain can comprehend, seem to be what I'm feeling when I move. Barathy extensively wrote on his method, so I've heard, but, apart from the book I've mentioned, I've never been able to find any of his other writings. If anyone else knows of them, PLEASE let me know. Please let all of us know.

Anthony_Boyd----03/10/2001 5:46 AM----Post Number: 6


Has there been any progress finding any other items on this method?

Ryan----04/10/2001 4:22 AM----Post Number: 7


If I do a form faster today than I did yesterday, my kwan-jang-nim will no doubt be looking for me to do it faster still the next day.

It seems there is always faster.

But to what end, ki-powered movement beyond the speed of light?

Anthony_Boyd----05/10/2001 1:35 AM----Post Number: 8


Why not? I dream of one day being able to end a form before I start it.

Aaron----05/10/2001 8:12 AM----Post Number: 9


Finish before you even start? That is easily accomplished. Just take a nap instead of going to class!

Ron----05/10/2001 11:03 AM----Post Number: 10


Fast isn't bad, getting there the firstest with the mostest, you know, but timing is still much more important. It's not really how fast you can swing a bat that counts. And the same is true for throwing a punch, kick or cutting with a sword (which brings that discussion on Bokuk kumbup to mind).

I recall my beginning days learning to put out candles. I thought that the speed with which I swung the mokgum MUST have something to do with accomplishing the task. And it did. But not nearly to the extent that I thought it would. I've found that in that instance (and most others I can think of), ki was more important than ki-speed (?).

Rhythm, distance and timing are the Holy Trinity. Speed is a minor deity, at best. Certainly something not to be shunned, but definately something not to be worshipped.

Ryan----06/10/2001 11:43 PM----Post Number: 11


Very well put Ron.

Our dojang puts A LOT of emphasis on speed as I eluded to. Our bu-kwan-jang-nim is really fast. It seems to be his specialty. There are others in our dojang who sacrafice everything at the altar of speed. They finish first, but in the course of the form positions are lost and their swords don't complete cuts. Often the sword is not even in position to cut. (meaning the blade is turned one way or the other)

When I teach I don't push for speed from my students. I concentrate on form and figure speed will come with time. You've been teaching a lot longer than I have, any advice?

Ron----12/10/2001 12:58 PM----Post Number: 12


The Bubishi says that "Speed comes from effort." Effort applied in the wrong direction (e.g., performing bad technique) leads to problems (i.e., bad technique). Form is designed to produce optimal effect. Bad form doesn't give optimal results.

If I may make a suggestion about improving technique, bad form can usually be corrected by cutting practice. Teaching both at the same time is of value, even if they're lower belts. My instructor started me cutting at yellow belt. (I'm not quite sure what that said about my technique.)

This issue also relates to the discussion topic of variation in techniques. As you're all aware, the techniques change after Ildan and are designed for quickness. This also points to differences in quickness and speed. I believe Musashi comments on this distinction in Go Rin No Sho. Quickness is more related to rhythm, distance and timing.

I have been trying to build more speed in the Yedo forms. I think I need more emphasis on the hips and waist. The only Yedo that really seems to flow is 9 (for which I have no explanation!!!)

When I was spending a lot of time working on Yedo, I found the one thing which made it easier to be faster was to be lower and tighter in my stances.

As odd as it sounds, movement requires far more effort in a "lazy", high sodo-sae or loose sodo-sae-dae-do-sae-sodo-sae transition than it takes when you frame each stance properly.


It sounds like you are worried more about flow, though - fluidity of execution. I have the opposite problem so I don't think I can help you.
Anyone else?

The feedback that I have is that my shoulders are too tight which affects the quality of the sword movement. I think that translates to something like "you are making it look like work!" instead of that beautiful effortless flow that we all want. The ratio of effort to speed hasn't clicked yet. Are the yedo forms done really fast in other countries? I actually timed them out the other day and mine go something like this: Yedo 1: 25 sec, Yedo 2: 20 sec, Yedo 3: 25 sec, Yedo 4:25 sec, Yedo 6: 35 sec, Yedo 7:40 sec, Yedo 8: 22 sec, Yedo 9: 70 sec. To get those times I had to edit out the "dramatic pauses". However, I will put those back in after I am happy with the (faster) flow again. I had thought I was happy. . .