andrew----08/08/2002 7:38 PM----Post Number: 1



Fellow journeymen (and women),
I have trained in several other martial arts prior to beginning HDGD. One of the things that has struck me is that in most of the other martial arts I have practised, there was instruction of basic stances and, in particular, how to move from one stance to the next. In HDGD, although we practise the basic stances at the beginning of the class, there seems to be no instruction on movement between the different stances.
To address this, over the last 6 months I have developed a set of stepping exercises to practise these movements. I am now sufficiently confident about them that I would like to share them with you.
All of these exercises focus on the legs and hip motions. There are no hand motions in these exercises.
1. Taedo-se to sodo-se (variation stand up from current stance into taedo-se)
2. Pôm-se to sodo-se
3. Same as 2 except turn to face rear and change into Pôm-se
4. From any stance (but I normally start in taedo-se) step forward with rear leg and do a forwards turn with step through. With this I am trying to emphasise hip motion and movement in a straight line
5. Essentially the same as 4 except that I turn to the rear.
Please try these and comment if you think they add value to your training schedule. I would also be interested in other basic stepping exercises.
Andrew

b]Anthony_Boyd----09/08/2002 7:29 AM----Post Number: 2[/b]


This sounds like fun and perhaps might allow for useful practice in my tiny apartment.

As an aside, why do you feel there is no instruction in stance transitions? There are entire forms which have this very concept as one of their key points such as ssang-su 4 and yedo 1. In addition, haidong kwon-bub, the gyok-gum and eventually the wae-su kibun also give a lot of attention to shifting stances.

In HapKiDo we used to spend a lot of time practicing these stance changes but it wasn't until we started doing forms that I started to get better at the footwork and center placement. Could you explain the benefits you have discovered by making use of these isolated stance exercises? What am I missing?

andrew----13/08/2002 3:54 PM----Post Number: 3



Tony's question turns on a fundamental difference on our perception of the purpose of the patterns. Basically the difference revolves around whether the patterns are the purpose of HDGD or whether they are a tool to greater weapons proficiency. Tony's experience of HDGD is much broader than mine and includes a significant component of sparing and cutting. Being at a higher level of skill and practise than me, he sees patterns as being primarily a method to improve his sparring (which is probably as it should be).
My training of HDGD has been limited to almost only learning patterns. In my defence, my training is restricted to some extent in that there are only two of us in the lunchtime class and neither of us have armour. We are not pressured to obtain armour (though the instructor has encouraged me to purchase a kakôm (I would dearly love to do so but finances dictate that spare cash must be spent on the essentials of life) on a number of occasions but purchasing armour has only been suggested once). It is, of course, my laziness which stops me attending the evening classes that might expose me to sparing and cutting. To continue the defensive theme, Tony mentions that stance change is taught in the Kyokkôm and waesu. However, I have not been formally taught the Kyokkôm and this is the first time I can recall hearing of waesu. Thus, my focus is on getting the patterns correct. The basic stepping exercises I have developed, I think, help me improve the overall performance of the patterns.
These stepping exercises were developed in response to the failings in my rendering of the basic stances and stance changes while performing the patterns. My instructor has told me many times that my stances are not very good. I am, apparently, prone to lean too far forward in sodo-se (and taedo-se?). My personal peeve with my stance is when I come out of a reverse turn. I seem to finish too end-on and have to lean at a strange angle to complete the cut (normally olla paegi). Both of these errors, two name but two, are products of changes in mass through body and weapon movement.
I have also found that during the patterns I was too pre-occupied with completing the patterns / doing them at the required speed / fighting tiredness, etc., that by the time I reach the part I intended to focus on and change, I had forgotten that I wanted to change it or that my momentum took me past the section before I could change it. Therefore, I developed the stepping sequences to isolate the stepping motions and hopefully introduce change that will eventually feed into the patterns (not sure that it is yet).
To sum up, my approach to patterns has been quite the opposite to Tony's. Tony has found that patterns are good for developing stances, strength, and position that he can then apply when sparing (and cutting). I, on the other hand, have found that practising small snippets of moves help me refine my interpretation of the patterns (there being nothing else in my HDGD universe).
Andrew
p.s. As an aside, Tony has mentioned several times both in the community and to me privately that the patterns have themes that they are trying to emphasise. Have you listed these themes and posted them to the community?

Anthony_Boyd----13/08/2002 10:32 PM----Post Number: 4


I don't exactly see the forms as being a means to improve my sparring - they certainly do not lead directly to fighting proficiency. Still, I guess your summation of my views are close enough. I see them as a pool of suggestions from which to draw techniques but forms practice does not do much for my physical ability to spar. I rarely find myself using proper stances while sparring and try as I might I don't find myself able to use correct stances when I go cutting/bamboo pole smashing. I trust that one day I will though - or go mad.

When I spar I like to try things that appear in forms when I see my opponent do something that I think can be countered or capitalized upon by one of the elements in a form. Sometimes they work, sometimes they teach me something, sometimes they make me scratch my head in wonder.

The stance problem you mention is a familiar one to me. Lots of people encounter it - I know I did. (I probably still do.) In many people the problem of leaning over too far when coming out of a reversal is due to not taking a large enough step. For me, flexibility was the issue and I find it creeps back on me when I let off on my stretching. It is important to the technique to be low, shift direction without rising and to take as long a step as one can. It requires commitment to the attack and you can really feel it when you get it right. That's the difference really. Doing it wrong just feels like work and just another posture. I think that the effect of doing it right is impossible to miss.
Other people develop the lean because of the "curse of coolness". We see the lean in a lot of movies. The "no-looking" style of many swordsmen in Asian film, not to mention other styles of choreographed combat give people certain preconceptions.

As for my theories about the organization of forms and their themes... that's the topic of my booklet. Please be patient, let me finish it and I promise to sign yours.

I realize that this is an old thread but I thought I would share this video. As this is a forum about HDGD, forumites will probably mainly be interested in the video from about 1:50 to 4:50, as the rest of the video is more specific to the MA of Gicheon.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JO13r_2QLLE
I know that Gicheon is different then HDGD. But it seems that we as HDGD practitioners could gain much understanding from studying how, in Gicheon, one transitions from stance to stance.
So if you were to take the basic transitions done in the video above it would look something like this:
1-Gimase
2-Beomse
3-Daedose
4-Sodose
5-Kumge Dongnip

Obviously you'd want to exchange the hand motions for cutting with a Kum of some kind and do every stance except Gimase on both sides.
I'm not sure if it would help HDGD practitioners much to go into Hogong if their intent was to learn better how to transition from stance to stance since we only do this stance in Kompop.
I am very new to the MA Gicheon and my knowledge of Hangul is only so-so, so if I'm getting anything wrong please feel free to correct me.

Mr. Blood,
Do you study Gicheon? If so, may I ask where and with whom?

Hi John. I actually study on my own at the moment. I scoured the internet and found what information I could on Gicheon and legitimate Gicheon teachers and through my searching I came into contact with a master by the name of Ki Tae Lee. I emailed him and this was his reply:

Dear Eric Blood,

Thank you for your message.
My name is Lee, Ki Tae teaching GiCheon in Korea.
I'm afraid to tell you that there is no any way except for the DVDs that you may learn GiCheon in the US.

Here're info about the DVDs

1. GiCheon documentary DVD
http://www.turtlepress.com/Ki_DVD_p/dvd-ki.htm

2. Instruction DVD - US 50.00 (including postal charge, payment: personal check only)
http://www.gicheon.org/media/instruction.htm
If interested in this DVD, pls let me be informed.


You may learn GiCheon basic movements at gicheon site below.
These movements should be trained at least for a year and are must for further training

WonBahnJang - http://www.gicheon.org/training/wonbahnjang.htm
DahnBaeGong - http://www.gicheon.org/training/dahnbaegong.htm
NaeGa ShinJang - http://www.gicheon.org/training/naega.htm
DaeDoh - http://www.gicheon.org/training/daedoh.htm
* The four movements above are keys for GiCheon training.

Belows are for mainly martial arts.
http://www.gicheon.org/training/beomdoh.htm
http://www.gicheon.org/training/sodoh.htm
http://www.gicheon.org/training/geumgye.htm
http://www.gicheon.org/training/heogong.htm

PS. If you would want to challenge your life in Korea as a English teacher in Korean schools or private English academy, it may be one of your considerations to come to Korea.

Thanks,

Lee, Ki Tae
Master of GiCheon

So I have been training on my own. Obviously I would love to train with a master/teacher but know of none in my area and moving to Korea is not on the agenda for a couple of years.



P.S. Do you know of any teachers in the US?

All of the gicheon.org sites in the post that I clicked on come up as generic sites are state "This domain may be for sale. Buy this Domain"

Does anyone else see something with actual content?

I had the same issue.

Try replacing "org" with "kr". I think this is the correct site.

Hey sorry guys, I don't know what happened. This change must be very recent because I was looking at some of the links right before I posted my comment.
Brad is right if you replace the "org" with "kr" you will get one of the sites.
I've posted that home page below for convenience.

http://www.gicheon.kr

Here is another site I really like:

www24.brinkster.com/thefringe

P.S. I couldn't get the bottom link to hypertext. I tried many times but to no avail. If anyone can help me with this let me know.

Mr. Blood,
I studied Gicheon for several years under Master Jeon, Yeong Cheol in North Carolina. Unfortunately, our paths took both of us elsewhere. I'm currently teaching in the DC area and Master Jeon is in Kentucky.

Thank you, that's great to know!
I would love to start learning from a Gicheon sabumnim but I cannot travel outside of utah.
Do you ever teach out west? Or do you know of any teachers in my area? Any info you could give me would be greatly appreciated.

P.S. I mean no disrespect by this next thought but I was just wondering why would master Ki Tae Lee tell me that there were no Gicheon teachers in the US? Are there different Gicheon groups like there are in Haidong Gumdo? Or would he somehow be unaware that there are teachers in the US? This is very confusing. Can anyone shed light on the subject for me?

My assumption is that he is simply unaware. It is true that it is very rare to find someone who has ever heard of the art, much less offers instruction. When I first told Master Kim, Moon Kap that I had studied Gicheon, I clearly remember him being floored by the statement. Unfortunately, I'm unaware of any instructors in the Utah area.

Thanks for letting me know, I'll just have to keep training on my own for now.